wvmat.com

10-4

The officials call it like they see it. They may miss a call once and a while, but most often its the complaining coach or fan who is mistaken. Bashing a high school wrestler on here, even if you feel he is a meanie, isn't something the forum needs.

guard0544 wrote:The officials call it like they see it. They may miss a call once and a while, but most often its the complaining coach or fan who is mistaken. Bashing a high school wrestler on here, even if you feel he is a meanie, isn't something the forum needs.

How is a coach mistaken when a referee misses something? This is the type of thing that I mentioned on another thread. I am not bashing anyone but the majority of referees act as if a coach doesn't know what he is talking about on a regular basis. It doesn't help the sport when officials act this way just like it doesn't help the sport whenever coaches act as if officials don't know anything.

My kid had a 1000 matches before HS, 159 in HS and another 100 plus in college so I have seen a few questionable calls. Not once did I ever complain about a ref. The only time my kid ever complained about a ref to me was after losing a close match in a big tournament semi when ref awarded the other wrestle a point (2nd stall warning) when he pushed my son out of bounds. It was clear as day and not a good call. When my son saw me after the match I told him it was his fault not the ref because he was wrestling to conservative and wrestling too close to the edge of mat plus he already had a stall warning. Its easy to blame refs but I would not and could not do their job. Hopefully when life gets a lot tougher for my son as he gets older he will remember not to use the blame game even when you think your right. Thanks

I do have a question for the officials. It is sort-of related to all the noise about last nights East Fairmont match, but I am asking because it raised a curiosity, not to preclude any judgment.

Is there a template or rubric to guide what is unsportsmanlike conduct and what is flagrant misconduct? If so, how is applied and is it subject to the different perspective of each referee? In football, if I receive 2 unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, I am out this game and the next. Its black and white, referee has to assess if whatever happened was unsportsmanlike, that's it. However, It appears to me there is some grey area for interpretation in the wrestling rules and that the rules themselves could be more concrete definition in order to be applied in manner that is consistent. I think the referee's in this state do a fabulous job for the most part and I have the utmost respect for what they do. I think if spent the time that these guys do refereeing, It would take on toll on marriage and family.

J. Zeiders

Let me try to clarify.
1. The is no two rule unsportsmanlike rule in wrestling.
2. Flaragant you are gone sit out next two weigh ins
Some examples
Biting
Dropping f bomb
Punching
Spitting
Head butts can be also

Then you have unecessary roughness and unsportsmanlike
Examples
Strong cross face
Taunting
Not shaking hands etc

It is a judgment call by official on unsportsmanlike. Hope that helps

Yes, thank you. I appreciate the clarification. My opinion was there is some overlap (grey areas), where some calls could be seen as one or the other and are very much at the discretion of the official. It remains so, for example, some pushing & certainly some head taps (see Zain Retheford V. Eleazer DeLuca) could possible be seen as flagrant, but others could have the perspective its unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike.

Thanks Chris, you've always fair and consistent from my point of view, even if I disagreed with the call. I never worry if my son steps on the mat and you're in the middle.

russling wrote:My kid had a 1000 matches before HS, 159 in HS and another 100 plus in college so I have seen a few questionable calls. Not once did I ever complain about a ref. The only time my kid ever complained about a ref to me was after losing a close match in a big tournament semi when ref awarded the other wrestle a point (2nd stall warning) when he pushed my son out of bounds. It was clear as day and not a good call. When my son saw me after the match I told him it was his fault not the ref because he was wrestling to conservative and wrestling too close to the edge of mat plus he already had a stall warning. Its easy to blame refs but I would not and could not do their job. Hopefully when life gets a lot tougher for my son as he gets older he will remember not to use the blame game even when you think your right. Thanks

That exactly how I look at it. Never like hearing the refs be blamed for a loss.

I was talking to the father of a very, very successful WV wrestler earlier today and he brought up a very good point. He stated that if a given match is refereed and controlled how it should be, then who the specific ref was would never be remembered.

russling wrote:My kid had a 1000 matches before HS, 159 in HS and another 100 plus in college so I have seen a few questionable calls. Not once did I ever complain about a ref. The only time my kid ever complained about a ref to me was after losing a close match in a big tournament semi when ref awarded the other wrestle a point (2nd stall warning) when he pushed my son out of bounds. It was clear as day and not a good call. When my son saw me after the match I told him it was his fault not the ref because he was wrestling to conservative and wrestling too close to the edge of mat plus he already had a stall warning. Its easy to blame refs but I would not and could not do their job. Hopefully when life gets a lot tougher for my son as he gets older he will remember not to use the blame game even when you think your right. Thanks

I don’t believe anyone here blamed the ref for the wrestler losing in the match in question. That wasn’t the issue.

Bearhugger is 100% correct. In a perfect world that is how it happens. But refs are people and coaches need a relationship with the officials so a respectful frank discussion can be had when needed. When calls are bad, sometimes a coach pushes the envelope. Good officials know how to handle this too.

Either way the certain school that has this topic being brought up needs to get a grip on their kids. Its ridiculous that back at the beginning of the year multiple schools contacted the certain schools principal about the way the kids act and still to this day, they're very undiciplined. It makes one wonder, do the parents of those kids accept that behavior or do they not care.

Bearhug wrote:Either way the certain school that has this topic being brought up needs to get a grip on their kids. Its ridiculous that back at the beginning of the year multiple schools contacted the certain schools principal about the way the kids act and still to this day, they're very undiciplined. It makes one wonder, do the parents of those kids accept that behavior or do they not care.

Success is not owned. It is rented and the rent is due everyday. If you cannot pay the rent, then it is time to move out.

Bearhug wrote:Either way the certain school that has this topic being brought up needs to get a grip on their kids. Its ridiculous that back at the beginning of the year multiple schools contacted the certain schools principal about the way the kids act and still to this day, they're very undiciplined. It makes one wonder, do the parents of those kids accept that behavior or do they not care.

Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but ignore the plank in your own eye?

What plank are you referring to? Are you comparing "said team" behavior to a speck? Not very many teams have to suspend wrestlers for behavior because most coaches and parents demand respect.

Lloyd Christmas wrote:What plank are you referring to? Are you comparing "said team" behavior to a speck? Not very many teams have to suspend wrestlers for behavior because most coaches and parents demand respect.

Ethics
Abandoned
Struggling
Times

Bearhug wrote:Either way the certain school that has this topic being brought up needs to get a grip on their kids. Its ridiculous that back at the beginning of the year multiple schools contacted the certain schools principal about the way the kids act and still to this day, they're very undiciplined. It makes one wonder, do the parents of those kids accept that behavior or do they not care.

It’s has long been said that Prinicpal does not care about sports . Whether it be one of the most successful wrestling programs in the state or one of the most inept football programs in the state he is consistent. Doesn’t care one way or the other.

RConley wrote:

Bearhug wrote:Either way the certain school that has this topic being brought up needs to get a grip on their kids. Its ridiculous that back at the beginning of the year multiple schools contacted the certain schools principal about the way the kids act and still to this day, they're very undiciplined. It makes one wonder, do the parents of those kids accept that behavior or do they not care.

It’s has long been said that Prinicpal does not care about sports . Whether it be one of the most successful wrestling programs in the state or one of the most inept football programs in the state he is consistent. Doesn’t care one way or the other.

What about the parents? Do they have some responsibility?

Lloyd Christmas wrote:What plank are you referring to? Are you comparing "said team" behavior to a speck? Not very many teams have to suspend wrestlers for behavior because most coaches and parents demand respect.

I'm saying that who are you to judge others. Easy to point out others issues and ignore your own. It is well known that all teams have issues, just easier to point out others.

It's the most emotional sport going ! There will be blow-ups. Some excessive ! Wrestlers are wired different. Nowadays ,,they back talk, say no, and sorta do as they please. Back in the day it was,,, YES SIR, and you did as was asked of you. No questions ! Now ,, you have good senior wrestlers making CHILDISH finger gestures during team photos. Not showing up for podium photos. Injury time-outs for being tired. All this falls on the wrestler and coach. When behavior is out of control, our team captains handle it and it stops there. When Major decisions are to be made, team captains handle it. Never any question to the outcome. If it has to go to the.coach, most likely,,, they are no longer on the team. This sport is about discipline PERIOD, Only time we see the principal is when he's congratulating these young men and women on their performance and character. As it should be. Wrestling parents are crazy.. always have been,, always will be.. This is the BEST SPORT !!!! Officials no longer officiate, they are now deciding match outcomes.... Just my thought. Class of 81

I am totally in the dark as to the specifics of this topic....but on the positive side of the ledger I have learned many life improving axioms that I will readily apply to my life! ( for eaxample: when ones rent is due and general care of ones eyes). Thanks.

fireman wrote:It's the most emotional sport going ! There will be blow-ups. Some excessive ! Wrestlers are wired different. Nowadays ,,they back talk, say no, and sorta do as they please. Back in the day it was,,, YES SIR, and you did as was asked of you. No questions ! Now ,, you have good senior wrestlers making CHILDISH finger gestures during team photos. Not showing up for podium photos. Injury time-outs for being tired. All this falls on the wrestler and coach. When behavior is out of control, our team captains handle it and it stops there. When Major decisions are to be made, team captains handle it. Never any question to the outcome. If it has to go to the.coach, most likely,,, they are no longer on the team. This sport is about discipline PERIOD, Only time we see the principal is when he's congratulating these young men and women on their performance and character. As it should be. Wrestling parents are crazy.. always have been,, always will be.. This is the BEST SPORT !!!! Officials no longer officiate, they are now deciding match outcomes.... Just my thought. Class of 81

i agree 100%. It’s been going on for several years. A couple of years ago at the regionals I saw a senior wrestler for a pretty good program get upset in the semis. He pretty much blew a gasket, slamming his headgear and slamming doors. Just an ugly situation. I thought to myself well he’s done, the coach won’t let him continue, I know my high school coach wouldn’t. That’s not how it worked out, this wrestler went on to win the state title next week. These young men have to be held accountable for their actions or this behavior will continue.

aacoach124 wrote:

fireman wrote:It's the most emotional sport going ! There will be blow-ups. Some excessive ! Wrestlers are wired different. Nowadays ,,they back talk, say no, and sorta do as they please. Back in the day it was,,, YES SIR, and you did as was asked of you. No questions ! Now ,, you have good senior wrestlers making CHILDISH finger gestures during team photos. Not showing up for podium photos. Injury time-outs for being tired. All this falls on the wrestler and coach. When behavior is out of control, our team captains handle it and it stops there. When Major decisions are to be made, team captains handle it. Never any question to the outcome. If it has to go to the.coach, most likely,,, they are no longer on the team. This sport is about discipline PERIOD, Only time we see the principal is when he's congratulating these young men and women on their performance and character. As it should be. Wrestling parents are crazy.. always have been,, always will be.. This is the BEST SPORT !!!! Officials no longer officiate, they are now deciding match outcomes.... Just my thought. Class of 81

i agree 100%. It’s been going on for several years. A couple of years ago at the regionals I saw a senior wrestler for a pretty good program get upset in the semis. He pretty much blew a gasket, slamming his headgear and slamming doors. Just an ugly situation. I thought to myself well he’s done, the coach won’t let him continue, I know my high school coach wouldn’t. That’s not how it worked out, this wrestler went on to win the state title next week. These young men have to be held accountable for their actions or this behavior will continue.

Absolutely! The longer bad behavior or character is tolerated, the more difficult it is to fix later. In my day, it just wouldn't have been allowed to continue. I am just amazed at how many times this season I have seen it occur with senior wrestlers... and very talented senior wrestlers at that. I suppose talent and age doesn't necessarily equate good character or restraint... but the coaches and parents should demand this.

dunbar76 wrote:Bearhugger is 100% correct. In a perfect world that is how it happens. But refs are people and coaches need a relationship with the officials so a respectful frank discussion can be had when needed. When calls are bad, sometimes a coach pushes the envelope. Good officials know how to handle this too.

Call the stall, call the fall, pray the hospitality room has BBQ and slaw.

matcoach90 wrote:

aacoach124 wrote:

fireman wrote:It's the most emotional sport going ! There will be blow-ups. Some excessive ! Wrestlers are wired different. Nowadays ,,they back talk, say no, and sorta do as they please. Back in the day it was,,, YES SIR, and you did as was asked of you. No questions ! Now ,, you have good senior wrestlers making CHILDISH finger gestures during team photos. Not showing up for podium photos. Injury time-outs for being tired. All this falls on the wrestler and coach. When behavior is out of control, our team captains handle it and it stops there. When Major decisions are to be made, team captains handle it. Never any question to the outcome. If it has to go to the.coach, most likely,,, they are no longer on the team. This sport is about discipline PERIOD, Only time we see the principal is when he's congratulating these young men and women on their performance and character. As it should be. Wrestling parents are crazy.. always have been,, always will be.. This is the BEST SPORT !!!! Officials no longer officiate, they are now deciding match outcomes.... Just my thought. Class of 81

i agree 100%. It’s been going on for several years. A couple of years ago at the regionals I saw a senior wrestler for a pretty good program get upset in the semis. He pretty much blew a gasket, slamming his headgear and slamming doors. Just an ugly situation. I thought to myself well he’s done, the coach won’t let him continue, I know my high school coach wouldn’t. That’s not how it worked out, this wrestler went on to win the state title next week. These young men have to be held accountable for their actions or this behavior will continue.

Absolutely! The longer bad behavior or character is tolerated, the more difficult it is to fix later. In my day, it just wouldn't have been allowed to continue. I am just amazed at how many times this season I have seen it occur with senior wrestlers... and very talented senior wrestlers at that. I suppose talent and age doesn't necessarily equate good character or restraint... but the coaches and parents should demand this.

Some programs simply need a new head coach.

maskedman wrote:

Lloyd Christmas wrote:What plank are you referring to? Are you comparing "said team" behavior to a speck? Not very many teams have to suspend wrestlers for behavior because most coaches and parents demand respect.

I'm saying that who are you to judge others. Easy to point out others issues and ignore your own. It is well known that all teams have issues, just easier to point out others.

The issues each given team has are not equal. Parents, fans and coaches hear, read and see. From one week to the next, more of the same happens and it happens to be coming from the same team.

Bucktail wrote:I do have a question for the officials. It is sort-of related to all the noise about last nights East Fairmont match, but I am asking because it raised a curiosity, not to preclude any judgment.

Is there a template or rubric to guide what is unsportsmanlike conduct and what is flagrant misconduct? If so, how is applied and is it subject to the different perspective of each referee? In football, if I receive 2 unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, I am out this game and the next. Its black and white, referee has to assess if whatever happened was unsportsmanlike, that's it. However, It appears to me there is some grey area for interpretation in the wrestling rules and that the rules themselves could be more concrete definition in order to be applied in manner that is consistent. I think the referee's in this state do a fabulous job for the most part and I have the utmost respect for what they do. I think if spent the time that these guys do refereeing, It would take on toll on marriage and family.

J. Zeiders

Unsportsmanlike conduct Rule 7-4-2 (page 38, NFHS Wrestling Rules Book 2017-18)
Flagrant misconduct Rule 7-4-3 (page 38, NFHS Wrestling Rules Book 2017-18)
Penalty chart for both (page 42, NFHS Wrestling Rules Book 2017-18)

Bearhugger wrote:

dunbar76 wrote:Bearhugger is 100% correct. In a perfect world that is how it happens. But refs are people and coaches need a relationship with the officials so a respectful frank discussion can be had when needed. When calls are bad, sometimes a coach pushes the envelope. Good officials know how to handle this too.

Call the stall, call the fall, pray the hospitality room has BBQ and slaw.

I laughed! Some won’t though...

matcoach90 wrote:10-4

Bucktail wrote:I do have a question for the officials. It is sort-of related to all the noise about last nights East Fairmont match, but I am asking because it raised a curiosity, not to preclude any judgment.

Is there a template or rubric to guide what is unsportsmanlike conduct and what is flagrant misconduct? If so, how is applied and is it subject to the different perspective of each referee? In football, if I receive 2 unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, I am out this game and the next. Its black and white, referee has to assess if whatever happened was unsportsmanlike, that's it. However, It appears to me there is some grey area for interpretation in the wrestling rules and that the rules themselves could be more concrete definition in order to be applied in manner that is consistent. I think the referee's in this state do a fabulous job for the most part and I have the utmost respect for what they do. I think if spent the time that these guys do refereeing, It would take on toll on marriage and family.

J. Zeiders

The really sad thing is I have actually bothered to to take the time to read this entire post over a few days and have no clue about the topic because it was never made clear.

What the heck does 10-4 mean?
And if we're discussing something that happened at an East Fairmont match, why can't it be stated exactly what happened that is being talked about? It did actually happen didn't it and if it is just about an unsportsmanlike conduct call why can't it just be stated to make some sense to the rest of us?

Or is it just about the care of one's eyes, as alluded to in an earlier post.

Tired
Confused
Into this new style of ending posts
Still tired

KDunbar wrote:

matcoach90 wrote:10-4

Bucktail wrote:I do have a question for the officials. It is sort-of related to all the noise about last nights East Fairmont match, but I am asking because it raised a curiosity, not to preclude any judgment.

Is there a template or rubric to guide what is unsportsmanlike conduct and what is flagrant misconduct? If so, how is applied and is it subject to the different perspective of each referee? In football, if I receive 2 unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, I am out this game and the next. Its black and white, referee has to assess if whatever happened was unsportsmanlike, that's it. However, It appears to me there is some grey area for interpretation in the wrestling rules and that the rules themselves could be more concrete definition in order to be applied in manner that is consistent. I think the referee's in this state do a fabulous job for the most part and I have the utmost respect for what they do. I think if spent the time that these guys do refereeing, It would take on toll on marriage and family.

J. Zeiders

The really sad thing is I have actually bothered to to take the time to read this entire post over several days and have no clue about the topic because it was never made clear.

What the heck does 10-4 mean?
And if we're discussing something that happened at an East Fairmont match, why can't it be stated exactly what happened that is being talked about? It did actually happen didn't it and if it is just about an unsportsmanlike conduct call why can't it just be stated to make some sense to the rest of us?

Or is just about the care of one's eyes, as alluded to in an earlier post.

Tired
Confused
Into this new style of ending posts
Still tired

A bunch of the initial comments were removed at some point. I read the thread when it first started and now 90% of those first 8 or 10 comments are gone.