Seeding the State Tournament - Hybrid Pill

[Bearhugger]

Actually, the pill will work better next season than ever before in AAA.

Whereas 90% of the best wrestlers will be coming out of the new region 4, the pill will separate them out.

Now we need to debate a wild card system for the other top ten ranked kids buried in region 4.

[Bearhugger]

It looks like PA is doing something like this.

[russling]

Posted the MAT forum regarding other states

NJ separates based on past performance. Very complicated system though.

Pa just this coming year will be seeding region champs.

Illinois seperates the 4 sectional winners using a point system that is based on the previous year's performance in the state series and current record. The other wrestlers in the bracket are placed based on where their sectional winner is placed.

In Ohio, if you placed top 3 the previous year, and win your district, then you are separated at the State level.

[WVHSwrestling]

Why recreate the wheel. Take a lesson from other state wrestling organizations-PA does it very well!

[J.W.]

Why recreate the wheel. Take a lesson from other state wrestling organizations-PA does it very well!

PA is seeding their regional champions this year. A change due to two very well known prominent wrestlers meeting in the semi finals. So were you referring to the way PA used to do it, or they are now doing it?

[russling]

sorry double post

[Sally]

It's very early for pill discussion. Maybe it's always time for pill discussion?

Bearhugger has at least done a little research and is always making the forum more fun.

[Frank]

I was listening to one of my podcasts. They were talking about how in the past a D2 champ was invited to the D1 national tournament. Thought this migh be an idea for discussion for wva. If we held separate state tournaments, it would lower venue cost. Plus if we allow the A/AA champion to participate in the AAA state tournament it would be a way of strengthing the AAA tournament. Something to balance out that region 4 powerhouse.

[Bearhugger]

ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!! CHECK THE DATES ON THIS DISCUSSION TOPIC.

The original post was made almost exactly three years ago to the date. Here we are three years later and many of the forum members have been "beating this dead horse". Why? Because the horse ain't dead!!! The horse is still alive and taking a crap in the wrestling pasture.

The solution could be even easier. Let me begin by getting everybody's mind in the right place. There is a tournament in Florida where the director advertised on WVMAT seeking additional WV teams next season. He mentioned they had 39 teams. They used a "32 team" bracket where they could and then used a "64 man bracket" on the weight classes where they had over 32 wrestlers. This is a hybrid approach. This is hybrid thinking. It is not "stuck in the 70s" thinking.

For the 2019 season, Pill 1 has been chosen. Pill 1 CLEARLY has the two best AAA 182s potentially meeting in the semifinals. The solution is to switch to a different pill for select weight classes to avoid this situation. Pill 1 for the state tournament and Pill 2 for 182. There could be a few other weight classes where Pill 2 could be used.

How do we decide when to use two pills?

Lets discuss AAA 182 in further detail. Lanham/Huntington is a 3x finalist and 2x state champion. Carmen is a 1x finalist and 2x placer. Using the February Coaches' rankings for AAA at 182, Lanham is #1 and Carmen is #2. Regarding the other eight ranked wrestlers, there is not a returning state place winner in the group. Four are returning state tournament qualifiers and the other four did not compete in the 2018 state tournament. These eight guys might end up being the baddest of the bad, but from a ranking/seeding/decision making standpoint, they do not have a "pill altering" resume.

[aaacoach90]

Common sense or cents? One thing for sure is people are afraid of change .

[Bearhugger]

Common sense or cents? One thing for sure is people are afraid of change .

West Virginia reacts too slowly. You establish the fire department before the house burns down.

[Bearhugger]

My good friend "TrueSouthFanInBoalsburg" sent this for all of you modern day thinkers to argue about:

www.d6wrestling.com/SeedCriterion.htm?f ... _Td_Yrxx4A

[greencrush]

Basing the state seeds on rankings is absolutely crazy. I would be very interested to see how often one met two in the semi's, and then the loser not take 3rd. I remember times where number one was beat in the semi's and ended up 4th and lower. They are rankings based on opinion and a few results. Putting any more weight in them other than letting the kids wrestle is just mind boggling to me.

QFT

That is the biggest reason I favor the pill. It isn't subject to manipulation. You fall where you fall, and you wrestle from there.

For perspective, in 8 of the 14 weight classes at OVAC this year, the number one seed and number two seed met in the finals. At last year's state tournament, 15 of the 28 weight classes featured a finals match between the number one and number two ranked guy in the weight class in the pre-regional rankings. It isn't that I am anti-seeding. It's just that I have looked at it enough to know that seeding isn't significantly more likely to result in the best guys at a weight being separated than the pill. And it eliminates any incentive for guys to go wrestle easy schedules or dodge tough matches. And it eliminates the possibility of shenanigans at the regional tournaments.

QFT again

Who top two are is your opinion. Nothing more. Our opinion on the top two in a given weight class may be different. In addition, the difference in outcome is not statistically significant. Seeding is for the birds.
Nobody cares anyways. It's not going to change, and the best wrestler will walk away with a state title.

[mscoach20]

Basing the state seeds on rankings is absolutely crazy. I would be very interested to see how often one met two in the semi's, and then the loser not take 3rd. I remember times where number one was beat in the semi's and ended up 4th and lower. They are rankings based on opinion and a few results. Putting any more weight in them other than letting the kids wrestle is just mind boggling to me.

QFT

That is the biggest reason I favor the pill. It isn't subject to manipulation. You fall where you fall, and you wrestle from there.

For perspective, in 8 of the 14 weight classes at OVAC this year, the number one seed and number two seed met in the finals. At last year's state tournament, 15 of the 28 weight classes featured a finals match between the number one and number two ranked guy in the weight class in the pre-regional rankings. It isn't that I am anti-seeding. It's just that I have looked at it enough to know that seeding isn't significantly more likely to result in the best guys at a weight being separated than the pill. And it eliminates any incentive for guys to go wrestle easy schedules or dodge tough matches. And it eliminates the possibility of shenanigans at the regional tournaments.

QFT again

Who top two are is your opinion. Nothing more. Our opinion on the top two in a given weight class may be different. In addition, the difference in outcome is not statistically significant. Seeding is for the birds.
Nobody cares anyways. It's not going to change, and the best wrestler will walk away with a state title.

Ok...I’m getting old. I had to google QFT lol

[aaacoach90]

Basing the state seeds on rankings is absolutely crazy. I would be very interested to see how often one met two in the semi's, and then the loser not take 3rd. I remember times where number one was beat in the semi's and ended up 4th and lower. They are rankings based on opinion and a few results. Putting any more weight in them other than letting the kids wrestle is just mind boggling to me.

QFT

That is the biggest reason I favor the pill. It isn't subject to manipulation. You fall where you fall, and you wrestle from there.

For perspective, in 8 of the 14 weight classes at OVAC this year, the number one seed and number two seed met in the finals. At last year's state tournament, 15 of the 28 weight classes featured a finals match between the number one and number two ranked guy in the weight class in the pre-regional rankings. It isn't that I am anti-seeding. It's just that I have looked at it enough to know that seeding isn't significantly more likely to result in the best guys at a weight being separated than the pill. And it eliminates any incentive for guys to go wrestle easy schedules or dodge tough matches. And it eliminates the possibility of shenanigans at the regional tournaments.

QFT again

Who top two are is your opinion. Nothing more. Our opinion on the top two in a given weight class may be different. In addition, the difference in outcome is not statistically significant. Seeding is for the birds.
Nobody cares anyways. It's not going to change, and the best wrestler will walk away with a state title.

Who the top kids are is not opinions. Its seeding criteria. Gets used alot last I checked.

[Bearhugger]

SIX years later.

No Action.

STALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mike.carman]

Just an FYI, WVYWA has been using this system for 7 years now and it has worked very well. take 6 from each of 4 regions and then seed the 4 regional champions and pill the rest. It was also suggested to the coaches committee at the 2020 State tournament. I know this because I gave this system to Mr Archer and he presented it to the coaches himself. It was not received well but the interesting thing is this. I have a spreadsheet that does this for me for each weight class. Once wrestlers are entered into the sheets, the seeds are generated and brackets are done in about 2 seconds. I would be happy to supply them with the tool I use as it would be a lot easier for them to do this since there are only 28 brackets as opposed to the 64 that I build myself.

[J.W.]

Just an FYI, WVYWA has been using this system for 7 years now and it has worked very well. take 6 from each of 4 regions and then seed the 4 regional champions and pill the rest. It was also suggested to the coaches committee at the 2020 State tournament. I know this because I gave this system to Mr Archer and he presented it to the coaches himself. It was not received well but the interesting thing is this. I have a spreadsheet that does this for me for each weight class. Once wrestlers are entered into the sheets, the seeds are generated and brackets are done in about 2 seconds. I would be happy to supply them with the tool I use as it would be a lot easier for them to do this since there are only 28 brackets as opposed to the 64 that I build myself.

Hmm! Who made that spreadsheet?

[beachbum1234]

SIX years later.

No Action.

STALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simply amazing

[mike.carman]

Just an FYI, WVYWA has been using this system for 7 years now and it has worked very well. take 6 from each of 4 regions and then seed the 4 regional champions and pill the rest. It was also suggested to the coaches committee at the 2020 State tournament. I know this because I gave this system to Mr Archer and he presented it to the coaches himself. It was not received well but the interesting thing is this. I have a spreadsheet that does this for me for each weight class. Once wrestlers are entered into the sheets, the seeds are generated and brackets are done in about 2 seconds. I would be happy to supply them with the tool I use as it would be a lot easier for them to do this since there are only 28 brackets as opposed to the 64 that I build myself.

Hmm! Who made that spreadsheet?

Definitely gotta give you props on that. It's been tweaked a bit since then but definitely came from your brain.

[mscoach4]

So most of these plans are based on seeding the 4 regional champions but what about the season that has the top 2 or even 3 ranked wrestlers in a weight class in the same region?

[mscoach106]

So most of these plans are based on seeding the 4 regional champions but what about the season that has the top 2 or even 3 ranked wrestlers in a weight class in the same region?

If the champs are seeded the Pill format is still used to fill in the rest of the bracket. 2 and 3 from a specific region are moved to the opposite side of the bracket from 1 and will face 3, 2 from another region.

[a_angeliii]

So most of these plans are based on seeding the 4 regional champions but what about the season that has the top 2 or even 3 ranked wrestlers in a weight class in the same region?

If the champs are seeded the Pill format is still used to fill in the rest of the bracket. 2 and 3 from a specific region are moved to the opposite side of the bracket from 1 and will face 3, 2 from another region.

So there is a possibility that the 2nd ranked kid in the state would wrestle the 3rd ranked kid in the quarter finals. Which is worse than some instances we have this year.

[a_angeliii]

If the plan is to seed the top 4 and the #1 and #2 ranked kids are from the same region, doesn’t that mean that there would be a potential #3 ranked kid wrestling the #2 ranked kid in the quarterfinals? Isn’t that worse in some cases than what we have right now?

[misskimlpn]

I find it very obnoxious for adults to talk about how their child should have placed above other wrestlers because that’s where the parents think they should have placed. The truth is if your child placed 3rd and not 2nd where you wanted to see him/her, then maybe they should work harder and become the wrestler you want them to be. But the bottom line is, you have to beat the best to be the best so strive for #1 instead of worrying about why he didn’t get to wrestle a true 2nd. Parents bad mouthing other kids, are less mature than their child.
Get over it!

[ncref]

The point of the tournament is to crown a champion. by definition,the best wrestler will win out independent of seeding.
If you are arguing about who should finish second or third, you are missing the point of the tournament

[KDunbar]

I find it very obnoxious for adults to talk about how their child should have placed above other wrestlers because that’s where the parents think they should have placed. The truth is if your child placed 3rd and not 2nd where you wanted to see him/her, then maybe they should work harder and become the wrestler you want them to be. But the bottom line is, you have to beat the best to be the best so strive for #1 instead of worrying about why he didn’t get to wrestle a true 2nd. Parents bad mouthing other kids, are less mature than their child.
Get over it!

Haven't seen this happening on any of the forum posts this year so I am not sure where this is coming from.

[mscoach4]

The point of the tournament is to crown a champion. by definition,the best wrestler will win out independent of seeding.
If you are arguing about who should finish second or third, you are missing the point of the tournament

But is that the whole point of the tournament? Some would argue that determining the best team in the state is the point. In some years the placement points recorded by a single placement in a single weight class were enough to determine the state team champion. So is getting the wrestlers seeded in the correct position on the bracket important? If you feel determining a team champion is the "point" of the tournament it is absolutely important.

[ncref]

The point of the tournament is to crown a champion. by definition,the best wrestler will win out independent of seeding.
If you are arguing about who should finish second or third, you are missing the point of the tournament

But is that the whole point of the tournament? Some would argue that determining the best team in the state is the point. In some years the placement points recorded by a single placement in a single weight class were enough to determine the state team champion. So is getting the wrestlers seeded in the correct position on the bracket important? If you feel determining a team champion is the "point" of the tournament it is absolutely important.

True , sort of.
The state tournament is, by NFHS definition, an "individually bracketed tournament". While team scores are tabulated, the focus in this tournament type is the individual.

Wrestling has always been, in my view, an individual sport with team consequences. As opposed to football/basketball/baseball, which is a team sport with individual contributions.

A true team championship should be determined by a true dual team tournament. We are getting there , but it needs to be expanded

Why am I against seeding you ask?? Seeding is not a pancea. Where I live now they seed for regionals (similar pill system for states) based on W-L record only. The result (an unintended consequence) is that coaches bump away or forfiet from competition to preserve a W/L record. So , often a coach will just forfeit a bout just to preserve his wrestlers record if it is clear his wrestler would lose anyways

[mike.carman]

The point of the tournament is to crown a champion. by definition,the best wrestler will win out independent of seeding.
If you are arguing about who should finish second or third, you are missing the point of the tournament

But is that the whole point of the tournament? Some would argue that determining the best team in the state is the point. In some years the placement points recorded by a single placement in a single weight class were enough to determine the state team champion. So is getting the wrestlers seeded in the correct position on the bracket important? If you feel determining a team champion is the "point" of the tournament it is absolutely important.

True , sort of.
The state tournament is, by NFHS definition, an "individually bracketed tournament". While team scores are tabulated, the focus in this tournament type is the individual.

Wrestling has always been, in my view, an individual sport with team consequences. As opposed to football/basketball/baseball, which is a team sport with individual contributions.

A true team championship should be determined by a true dual team tournament. We are getting there , but it needs to be expanded

Why am I against seeding you ask?? Seeding is not a pancea. Where I live now they seed for regionals (similar pill system for states) based on W-L record only. The result (an unintended consequence) is that coaches bump away or forfiet from competition to preserve a W/L record. So , often a coach will just forfeit a bout just to preserve his wrestlers record if it is clear his wrestler would lose anyways

If I am recalling what I was told correctly about how the pill came about in WV, your above scenario is the reason the pill was introduced. I for one have studied the pairings in detail for many years now and have come to the conclusion that both ideas have merit and a combination of both seeding and pill are the solution. Looking at it right now, there are only 3 possible outcomes for brackets and depending on who you are in that bracket, 1 is favorable, 1 is not too terrible but not ideal and the 3rd just sucks. What people are talking about doing away with is the 3rd and most unfavorable option, however, since there are only 3 possible outcomes and Region 1 lines are always C1 on line 1, R1 on line 11, T1 on Line 16 and F1 on line 6 always. There should actually be 24 different permutations of the pill. This is where seeding the regional champions would play into it. They may not be the top 4 in the state at that weight class, but there needs to be value given to winning your region. Then all other lines can be drawn from the permutations and in essence auto select the pill for the given bracket. However, if team scoring is not important then keep it the way it is, if team scoring is important, then change.