Video Challenge

[Bearhugger]

We have all attended some big tournaments where you can challenge a call through watching a video replay. I have seen missed calls overturned at NHSCA and Super 32.

After last night, it is time to consider using video replay at least for the state finals. There is video of a match all over Facebook that clearly shows something different than the final outcome.

Getting matches right is much more important than worrying about a coach wearing a hat in the corner.

[PSFan]

Could not agree more

[hollywood]

Absolutely! It’s horrible to see someone’s dreams get demolished because of a handful of bad referees, all while having the evidence to back it up!

[Bearhugger]

Absolutely! It’s horrible to see someone’s dreams get demolished because of a handful of bad referees, all while having the evidence to back it up!

If the rumor I heard becomes reality, by God there won't be any hats in the corners next season. Lets tackle the easy stuff (and trivial) and ignore the hard stuff.

[aaacoach90]

Absolutely! It’s horrible to see someone’s dreams get demolished because of a handful of bad referees, all while having the evidence to back it up!

If the rumor I heard becomes reality, by God there won't be any hats in the corners next season. Lets tackle the easy stuff (and trivial) and ignore the hard stuff.

What are you saying with no hats? No coach's in the corners?

[jofus]

So, are you going to push for the same in football? Basketball? Tennis? Etc?

Only in the states? What about the regionals?

Whose video camera do you use? State provided cameras? How much would we have to pay per session then? Because I'm sure $8 times 5 sessions wouldn't cover it.

You would probably need at least 3 cameras per mat. Plus, who makes the final call?

Just pointing out a few problems with the idea to think about. Carry on

[mscoach23]

Why would we need 3 cameras? No one else uses 3, I think one would be plenty.

[phsnate]

I agree with having the cameras and he is correct you would need more than 1. You would have to have at least two. I would have at least one on each side of the mat to ensure accuracy of the call. You may not be able to see whether it was a takedown or not if you're looking at the back far side of what happened, but if you had two cameras. The 2nd camera would have a better shot of what happened. Just like in football, does one single shot/view show you exactly what happened or is there always that best shot that shows you?

[jofus]

No one else uses more than one? In the ncaa they only have one camera angle for replays?

Again, what about other sports? I know this is a wrestling board, but I doubt the ssac (or anyone unbiased) would promote it in wrestling only.

[WrestlingFan1]

Be awaste of time, the refs would disagree with the videos and Callen would agree with them.

[pin2win]

All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!

[aacoach61]

I’m sure instant replay is workable for WVSSAC wrestling, but it has ruined NFL and college football games for me by dragging them out ad nauseum.

I believe that 100% of the time the top refs at the high school tournament want to get it right and could care less which wrestler wins. The real solution is to teach coaches the rules and how to communicate at the scorer’s table and, more importantly, to teach referees how to listen and admit they are wrong.

Every time I used to ask for a conference at the scorer’s table, the referee (who admittedly was usually right) would give me a dirty look like “how dare you challenge me.” The referee needs to realize that a challenge isn’t personal, it’s business, and on occasion they are wrong. That attitude alone goes a long way in correcting problems while there is still time.

[wrestlingfan23202]

All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!

Exactly!!! If the score was wrong. Still debatable. But then they knew what the score was and what he needed to do. He lost. Woody did an outstanding job.... great stall call and he did great he can’t help if his scoring official screwed up. I’ve seen Indy fans complaining so much but you know if it happened to Ward they would be okay with it

[coach_williams]

All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!

The problem is it is not that simple. When a ref refuses to award a takedown even when it clearly is, the wrestler is out of luck. Likewise, when a takedown is awarded when everyone watch can see it clearly is not, the wrestler is out of luck. When a ref gets down on the mat and literally stares at a wrestlers shoulders flat on the mat, but doesn't call the pin, the wrestler is out of luck.

I agree 100% that a camera and challenge system needs to be in place at states.

As for the question of who makes the review and call, that is simple. The head of officiating for the state needs to be there and he needs to have two experienced wrestling officials who are not working the tournament otherwise join him in a 3-person panel that reviews the challenges and makes the decision. In fact, perhaps the two other officials should be retired refs who have no investment in friendship with the current refs.

[mscoach4]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMCZWr4 ... e=youtu.be
.
The phantom unexplained point,,,,, I agree with you on this one Bearhugger ,,,, human error should be correctable through video replay ,,,,

[Bearhugger]

I’m sure instant replay is workable for WVSSAC wrestling, but it has ruined NFL and college football games for me by dragging them out ad nauseum.

I believe that 100% of the time the top refs at the high school tournament want to get it right and could care less which wrestler wins. The real solution is to teach coaches the rules and how to communicate at the scorer’s table and, more importantly, to teach referees how to listen and admit they are wrong.

Every time I used to ask for a conference at the scorer’s table, the referee (who admittedly was usually right) would give me a dirty look like “how dare you challenge me.” The referee needs to realize that a challenge isn’t personal, it’s business, and on occasion they are wrong. That attitude alone goes a long way in correcting problems while there is still time.

Correction, with all due respect. The NFL got ruined due to all of the kneeling during the National Anthem. Although I am not a diehard football fan, I have always watched the Super Bowl. This year I skipped it.

[Bearhugger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMCZWr4cPVw&feature=youtu.be
.
The phantom unexplained point,,,,, I agree with you on this one Bearhugger ,,,, human error should be correctable through video replay ,,,,

Call the stall, call the fall...........make mistakes, correct them all.

[Bearhugger]

All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!

The problem is it is not that simple. When a ref refuses to award a takedown even when it clearly is, the wrestler is out of luck. Likewise, when a takedown is awarded when everyone watch can see it clearly is not, the wrestler is out of luck. When a ref gets down on the mat and literally stares at a wrestlers shoulders flat on the mat, but doesn't call the pin, the wrestler is out of luck.

I agree 100% that a camera and challenge system needs to be in place at states.

As for the question of who makes the review and call, that is simple. The head of officiating for the state needs to be there and he needs to have two experienced wrestling officials who are not working the tournament otherwise join him in a 3-person panel that reviews the challenges and makes the decision. In fact, perhaps the two other officials should be retired refs who have no investment in friendship with the current refs.

The problem was very simple. The ref awarded points. The scorer's table came up with a "phantom point" and added one too many. Both refs didn't appear to notice the score despite the assistant ref holding up his fingers indicating 5 to 2.

On another topic, a friend of mine said today that if he did something wrong at work and his employer had it on video, then he would be in trouble.

There is video. At least fix the mistake.

[mscoach4]

I have also seen a picture of the bout sheet that does not have the phantom point on it so I am assuming the person on the scoreclock is the one that put the phantom point up. Isn't the bout sheet the legal binding score? The score display is just for the fans,, correct? Even In middle school I have seen similar mistakes corrected many times,,,,This was a WV state championship match,, and it wasn't corrected? Is there more to this story? This one is a real head scratcher.
.
On another note,,, why do we have assistant refs if we are going to ignore their input?

[kvnfarley]

Watch table workers don’t watch the match see if anyone of them seem to be distracted. Who were they?

[Truesouthfaninhunt]

I’m sure instant replay is workable for WVSSAC wrestling, but it has ruined NFL and college football games for me by dragging them out ad nauseum.

I believe that 100% of the time the top refs at the high school tournament want to get it right and could care less which wrestler wins. The real solution is to teach coaches the rules and how to communicate at the scorer’s table and, more importantly, to teach referees how to listen and admit they are wrong.

Every time I used to ask for a conference at the scorer’s table, the referee (who admittedly was usually right) would give me a dirty look like “how dare you challenge me.” The referee needs to realize that a challenge isn’t personal, it’s business, and on occasion they are wrong. That attitude alone goes a long way in correcting problems while there is still time.

Correction, with all due respect. The NFL got ruined due to all of the kneeling during the National Anthem. Although I am not a diehard football fan, I have always watched the Super Bowl. This year I skipped it.

“ ruined” ? Just because YOU “skipped” the SB? Are you the universal barometer of NFL popularity?

[Man2man]

After speaking with Mr Ryan at wvsac. It appears they will be putting a third referee for championship matches! This is happening because of the mistake made that kept Alex Hart from being the State Champ.

[mscoach20]

All I have to say about this thread....Dont put yourself in a position where the referees determines the match.... Congratulations Jaime..all your hard work has paid off!!!!

The problem is it is not that simple. When a ref refuses to award a takedown even when it clearly is, the wrestler is out of luck. Likewise, when a takedown is awarded when everyone watch can see it clearly is not, the wrestler is out of luck. When a ref gets down on the mat and literally stares at a wrestlers shoulders flat on the mat, but doesn't call the pin, the wrestler is out of luck.

I agree 100% that a camera and challenge system needs to be in place at states.

As for the question of who makes the review and call, that is simple. The head of officiating for the state needs to be there and he needs to have two experienced wrestling officials who are not working the tournament otherwise join him in a 3-person panel that reviews the challenges and makes the decision. In fact, perhaps the two other officials should be retired refs who have no investment in friendship with the current refs.

The problem was very simple. The ref awarded points. The scorer's table came up with a "phantom point" and added one too many. Both refs didn't appear to notice the score despite the assistant ref holding up his fingers indicating 5 to 2.

On another topic, a friend of mine said today that if he did something wrong at work and his employer had it on video, then he would be in trouble.

There is video. At least fix the mistake.

Poster on other thread made great point. Who is to say Ward don’t hit a nice throw or be way more aggressive after takedown being down 2? Can’t take away his win because a different score creates different urgency. I feel it’s unfortunate a mistake was made...but you can’t over turn it due to circumstances being created due to mistake. Plus...he ultimately finished on a pretty impressive run of points. Sucks, I’m sure. But, end of the day, he did finish strong.

[WP1992]

So you believe that the Winfield wrestler would have been more aggressive down 2 points with 10 seconds left than being down 1 point????? The problem with this situation is that it was not a judgment call, it was a blatant mistake that a entire group of people, including the Winfield coaches, could have made right and they didn't. And because of their inactions, both kids are penalized. Even though the Winfield wrestler had his hand raised, I am sure this is not an easy situation for him either.

[guard0544]

So you believe that the Winfield wrestler would have been more aggressive down 2 points with 10 seconds left than being down 1 point????? The problem with this situation is that it was not a judgment call, it was a blatant mistake that a entire group of people, including the Winfield coaches, could have made right and they didn't. And because of their inactions, both kids are penalized. Even though the Winfield wrestler had his hand raised, I am sure this is not an easy situation for him either.

10 seconds remaining would not be the point in the match to consider. It would be the point where the score was first incorrectly reflected...early in the 3rd period. Would you wrestle more aggressively knowing you were down by 3 points? As opposed to thinking a single take down would tie it up? I would. But its all hypothetical...we dont know what a wrestler would have done differently. Its unfortunate the error occurred.

[Bearhugger]

So you believe that the Winfield wrestler would have been more aggressive down 2 points with 10 seconds left than being down 1 point????? The problem with this situation is that it was not a judgment call, it was a blatant mistake that a entire group of people, including the Winfield coaches, could have made right and they didn't. And because of their inactions, both kids are penalized. Even though the Winfield wrestler had his hand raised, I am sure this is not an easy situation for him either.

10 seconds remaining would not be the point in the match to consider. It would be the point where the score was first incorrectly reflected...early in the 3rd period. Would you wrestle more aggressively knowing you were down by 3 points? As opposed to thinking a single take down would tie it up? I would. But its all hypothetical...we dont know what a wrestler would have done differently. Its unfortunate the error occurred.

The people who are focusing on the hypothetical situations are doing so to deflect attention away from the facts. The facts are the facts. This is what should be focused on.

[ringworm14]

So you believe that the Winfield wrestler would have been more aggressive down 2 points with 10 seconds left than being down 1 point????? The problem with this situation is that it was not a judgment call, it was a blatant mistake that a entire group of people, including the Winfield coaches, could have made right and they didn't. And because of their inactions, both kids are penalized. Even though the Winfield wrestler had his hand raised, I am sure this is not an easy situation for him either.

10 seconds remaining would not be the point in the match to consider. It would be the point where the score was first incorrectly reflected...early in the 3rd period. Would you wrestle more aggressively knowing you were down by 3 points? As opposed to thinking a single take down would tie it up? I would. But its all hypothetical...we dont know what a wrestler would have done differently. Its unfortunate the error occurred.

The people who are focusing on the hypothetical situations are doing so to deflect attention away from the facts. The facts are the facts. This is what should be focused on.

Agreed. Fact: Ward won the state title.

“Watch out for the ringworm!”

[DWM]

10 seconds remaining would not be the point in the match to consider. It would be the point where the score was first incorrectly reflected...early in the 3rd period. Would you wrestle more aggressively knowing you were down by 3 points? As opposed to thinking a single take down would tie it up? I would. But its all hypothetical...we dont know what a wrestler would have done differently. Its unfortunate the error occurred.

The people who are focusing on the hypothetical situations are doing so to deflect attention away from the facts. The facts are the facts. This is what should be focused on.

Agreed. Fact: Ward won the state title.

“Watch out for the ringworm!”
WV Mat Moderator

Disagree, Ward was incorrectly awarded the win, he DID NOT win it.

[Bearhugger]

The people who are focusing on the hypothetical situations are doing so to deflect attention away from the facts. The facts are the facts. This is what should be focused on.

Agreed. Fact: Ward won the state title.

“Watch out for the ringworm!”
WV Mat Moderator

Disagree, Ward was incorrectly awarded the win, he DID NOT win it.

I wonder what the opinions of the two officials and the two table scorers are now?

[DWM]

Agreed. Fact: Ward won the state title.

“Watch out for the ringworm!”
WV Mat Moderator

Disagree, Ward was incorrectly awarded the win, he DID NOT win it.

I wonder what the opinions of the two officials and the two table scorers are now?

Well at least we know what the state rules interpreters opinion is "not your kid why do you care."