LCQ Example - Sam Adams of Independence

[Bearhugger]

Here is a great example on how the Last Chance Qualifier could make wrestling great again.

Freshman Sam Adams of Independence campaigned as a light JV 152 pounder all season. He had no where to go. Here are his teammates:

138: Tanner Harris. Two time state runner up and one time state third placer.
145: Alex Hart. 2016 state runner up and NHSCA All American. Hart missed the 2017 state tournament due to injury.
152: Haegan Harvey: 2017 state champion. 2016 state 4th place winner.
160: Connor Gibson: State champion in 2017 and 2016. 6th place in 2015.

Here are some notable wins Adams had this season and his opponents’ 2018 state tournament qualification status:

1. Adams holds two wins over Conley of Braxton County. Conley placed 4th in AA/A region 2. Conley did defeat Adams once.
2. Adams holds one win over Cox of Greenbrier West. Cox placed 2nd in AA/A region 3. Cox does lead the series over Adams 2 to 1.
3. Adams holds a win over Pullen of Fayetteville. Pullen placed 4th in AA/A region 3.
4. Adams holds a win over Herdman of Wahama. Herdman placed 2nd in AA/A region 4.

In summary, Adams holds wins over four wrestlers, spread over three regions, that qualified for the state tournament.

The LCQ would probably make Sam Adams happy.

[mscoach64]

yeah, but he's JV. JV doesn't get to compete in varsity sports (at least in most sports they dont). Well, thats not true, JV players get to compete in a limited basis in varsity action. As example, in basketball a JV player can play 5 quarters an evening. In baseball/softball, a player gets a max 32 games with exception of postseason. In football a JV player can play 50 quarters a season. There is no JV championship or even playoff system.

[WrestlingFan1]

Not sure I fully understand all this JV talk. True they couldn't score points, but they could knock out other teams scoring wrestlers. So an already stacked team like Indy or South should be allowed to enter even more wrestlers?

[Bearhugger]

Not sure I fully understand all this JV talk. True they couldn't score points, but they could knock out other teams scoring wrestlers. So an already stacked team like Indy or South should be allowed to enter even more wrestlers?

Here is a post from a different forum topic:

I am not sure how many schools had a wrestling team this season in AA/A. I do know that 55 AA/A schools qualified at least 1 wrestler and there are some schools that did not qualify any out of regional action.

Of these 55 schools, only eight schools qualified 7 or more wrestlers (7 = half a team). 47 schools qualified less than 7.

Quick breakdown:

11 schools qualified 2 wrestlers.

10 schools qualified 1 wrestler.

26 schools qualified 3 to 6 wrestlers.

The beauty of wrestling is that one of these lone qualifiers could become a state champion individually. Team wise, one or two schools have a chance.

This is not a team sport folks.

[WrestlingFan1]

Just make it an open tournament, no team score, no seeding and everyone wrestles. Kind of like tee ball, no score and everyone gets to play. Participation trophies for everyone.

[neverwas22]

Not a team sport bearhugger? I was under the impression that schools field a "team" comprised of several wrestlers? I thought we had duals that were scored based on how the entire team wrestled. I thought they gave out state tournament "team" awards? Since this isn't a team sport, should coaches only focus on one or two wrestlers in the practice room, rather than the team? Should wrestlers at practice not practice with their teammates? Ask any wrestler or any coach and they will tell you that this is still a team sport.

[Bearhugger]

Just make it an open tournament, no team score, no seeding and everyone wrestles. Kind of like tee ball, no score and everyone gets to play. Participation trophies for everyone.

If it was an open tournament and everybody wrestled, then the best wrestlers in the state would be competing.

There is no seeding now for the most part.

The team scoring is only needed now to measure how bad Parkersburg South decimates the second place team. I will admit there is a fraction of intrigue for who might finish second. But for the majority of the schools, forget it.

[Bearhugger]

Not a team sport bearhugger? I was under the impression that schools field a "team" comprised of several wrestlers? I thought we had duals that were scored based on how the entire team wrestled. I thought they gave out state tournament "team" awards? Since this isn't a team sport, should coaches only focus on one or two wrestlers in the practice room, rather than the team? Should wrestlers at practice not practice with their teammates? Ask any wrestler or any coach and they will tell you that this is still a team sport.

I am not sure how many schools had a wrestling team this season in AA/A. I do know that 55 AA/A schools qualified at least 1 wrestler and there are some schools that did not qualify any out of regional action.

Of these 55 schools, only eight schools qualified 7 or more wrestlers (7 = half a team). 47 schools qualified less than 7.

Quick breakdown:

11 schools qualified 2 wrestlers.

10 schools qualified 1 wrestler.

26 schools qualified 3 to 6 wrestlers.

The beauty of wrestling is that one of these lone qualifiers could become a state champion individually. Team wise, one or two schools have a chance.

This is not a team sport folks.

[Geoswaff]

Young Adams could always transfer to another school so that he could get a spot. You can’t tell me that’s not an option given a couple of the names you mentioned of wrestlers in his way got to Indy by transferring and/or moving there. Which I have no objection to.

[Bearhugger]

Young Adams could always transfer to another school so that he could get a spot. You can’t tell me that’s not an option given a couple of the names you mentioned of wrestlers in his way got to Indy by transferring and/or moving there. Which I have no objection to.

All done within the rules outlined by all of the academic and sports gurus.

The point of the Sam Adams post is to point out that he has beat four different state tournament qualifiers. They are competing for state tournament individual accolades and Adams is not. The field of 16 qualifiers is not the best 16, thus the state tournament is not the best.

[neverwas22]

Not a team sport bearhugger? I was under the impression that schools field a "team" comprised of several wrestlers? I thought we had duals that were scored based on how the entire team wrestled. I thought they gave out state tournament "team" awards? Since this isn't a team sport, should coaches only focus on one or two wrestlers in the practice room, rather than the team? Should wrestlers at practice not practice with their teammates? Ask any wrestler or any coach and they will tell you that this is still a team sport.

I am not sure how many schools had a wrestling team this season in AA/A. I do know that 55 AA/A schools qualified at least 1 wrestler and there are some schools that did not qualify any out of regional action.

Of these 55 schools, only eight schools qualified 7 or more wrestlers (7 = half a team). 47 schools qualified less than 7.

Quick breakdown:

11 schools qualified 2 wrestlers.

10 schools qualified 1 wrestler.

26 schools qualified 3 to 6 wrestlers.

The beauty of wrestling is that one of these lone qualifiers could become a state champion individually. Team wise, one or two schools have a chance.

This is not a team sport folks.

As i said, ask any actual wrestler or coach and they will tell you that it is a team sport. Not every team is good, how does that diminish the team aspect of the sport?

[Geoswaff]

I understand where your coming from and I am sure with the scrutiny that Indy probably gets that everything was done correctly. I just think that the LCQ system your proposing weighs in the favor of a few schools who have larger teams with extra wrestlers. It is unfortunate for individuals who are elite JV, but that happens with many sports. I like the general idea of your LCQ as long as JV is taken out of the equation. Every school should get a chance to qualify a single wrestler at each weight class.

[Bearhugger]

I understand where your coming from and I am sure with the scrutiny that Indy probably gets that everything was done correctly. I just think that the LCQ system your proposing weighs in the favor of a few schools who have larger teams with extra wrestlers. It is unfortunate for individuals who are elite JV, but that happens with many sports. I like the general idea of your LCQ as long as JV is taken out of the equation. Every school should get a chance to qualify a single wrestler at each weight class.

Single A Greenbrier West had two wrestlers, Foley and Dorsey(Varsity and JV) meet in the 182 finals at the Braxton County Invitational. I was at the tournament briefly. Many schools but few wrestlers competing. If JV wrestlers were not allowed to compete, then the bracketed tournament might have got demoted to a duals meet.

Anyway, GW's Foley won the tournament. However, I have not seen his name in the scores much since then. Dorsey has qualified for the state tournament.

If JV is taken out of the equation, then the LCQ loses its effectiveness.

In other sports(here we go again), elite JV get put in the varsity game. Players alternate plays in football all the time. Players come off the bench in basketball and play big portions of the game.

[neverwas22]

Not a team sport bearhugger? I was under the impression that schools field a "team" comprised of several wrestlers? I thought we had duals that were scored based on how the entire team wrestled. I thought they gave out state tournament "team" awards? Since this isn't a team sport, should coaches only focus on one or two wrestlers in the practice room, rather than the team? Should wrestlers at practice not practice with their teammates? Ask any wrestler or any coach and they will tell you that this is still a team sport.

I am not sure how many schools had a wrestling team this season in AA/A. I do know that 55 AA/A schools qualified at least 1 wrestler and there are some schools that did not qualify any out of regional action.

Of these 55 schools, only eight schools qualified 7 or more wrestlers (7 = half a team). 47 schools qualified less than 7.

Quick breakdown:

11 schools qualified 2 wrestlers.

10 schools qualified 1 wrestler.

26 schools qualified 3 to 6 wrestlers.

The beauty of wrestling is that one of these lone qualifiers could become a state champion individually. Team wise, one or two schools have a chance.

This is not a team sport folks.

And......? As i said, ask any coach or wrestler and they will tell you it is still a team sport. Actually, it is both an individual and a team sport ,that is the beauty of it. Just because there teams that, from strictly a team standpoint, are not doing well does not mean it is not a team sport. Team titles in other states and college mean a whole heck of a lot to the people out there competing. Wrestling is not the same as basketball, football, baseball, whatever. It is pointless trying to compare them.

[Cummings]

I am astonished that wrestling in West Virginia ever made it this far without bearhugger. (sarcasm)

Wrestling is individual as well as a team sport.
Good luck to everyone who's still working hard in the practice room: coaches, wrestlers, non qualifiers, and jv's.

[mscoach64]

Young Adams could always transfer to another school so that he could get a spot. You can’t tell me that’s not an option given a couple of the names you mentioned of wrestlers in his way got to Indy by transferring and/or moving there. Which I have no objection to.

All done within the rules outlined by all of the academic and sports gurus.

The point of the Sam Adams post is to point out that he has beat four different state tournament qualifiers. They are competing for state tournament individual accolades and Adams is not. The field of 16 qualifiers is not the best 16, thus the state tournament is not the best.

You do realize that there are plenty varsity wrestlers (that didnt make the tourney) who have also beaten some state tourney wrestlers as well don't you?

[Echo]

So if we had JV wrestlers we would then have the very best at the State Tournament? Or if one or two that didn't make their State Roster we would have the best at the State Tournament? To say the 16 who have qualified are not the best the State has to offer is a bit of a slap in the face to kids and coaches who have dedicated countless hours to the sport. Do we blame the WVSSAC for the tournament setup or the parents for living in a district where their kid cannot make the team either by legitimate means or political?

Is the solution for the State Tournament a LCQ? I don't know, but it is refreshing to see someone throw around an idea on the forum.

Should they realign the Regionals and Classes - YES. The State's population and school's populations are diminishing not to mention participation levels. (with exception of a handful of schools - give it time its WV after all). We could, in the not so distant future, potentially have AA and A State without AAA presence.

Why discuss an LCQ and why not make the push for a 32 man bracket? More kids get to the State Tournament, eliminate the Pill, seed the kids, and let it happen on the mat. As for the JV aspect of it, have a B Level Tournament the week before State for those who did not participate at Regionals. No qualifier just sign up and compete. No team scores since teams don't exist and give out trophies and medals to the top 8 in each weight class. They get something for their hard work instead of having to either wait for a class of State Champions to graduate or for winning a wrestle-off (multiple times).

I believe last year someone posted to contact WVSSAC and voice opinions - if people have great / if they have not then you can continue to vent all of the problems with no resolution insight.

Wishing all of the wrestlers who have worked their tails off this season a successful and safe tournament.

[Bearhugger]

Young Adams could always transfer to another school so that he could get a spot. You can’t tell me that’s not an option given a couple of the names you mentioned of wrestlers in his way got to Indy by transferring and/or moving there. Which I have no objection to.

All done within the rules outlined by all of the academic and sports gurus.

The point of the Sam Adams post is to point out that he has beat four different state tournament qualifiers. They are competing for state tournament individual accolades and Adams is not. The field of 16 qualifiers is not the best 16, thus the state tournament is not the best.

You do realize that there are plenty varsity wrestlers (that didnt make the tourney) who have also beaten some state tourney wrestlers as well don't you?

Of course I realize it. We have extra tough regions and extra weak regions. That was acknowledged in the Last Chance Qualifier overview. Your point is a solid reason why the LCQ is a good thing.

[mscoach64]

All done within the rules outlined by all of the academic and sports gurus.

The point of the Sam Adams post is to point out that he has beat four different state tournament qualifiers. They are competing for state tournament individual accolades and Adams is not. The field of 16 qualifiers is not the best 16, thus the state tournament is not the best.

You do realize that there are plenty varsity wrestlers (that didnt make the tourney) who have also beaten some state tourney wrestlers as well don't you?

Of course I realize it. We have extra tough regions and extra weak regions. That was acknowledged in the Last Chance Qualifier overview. Your point is a solid reason why the LCQ is a good thing.

i dont honestly think that you really believe some of the things you say. You think you can change regional alignments and jv wrestlers being able to wrestle in the state tournament? I can't think of any sport on any level that doesn't have some sort of qualifying tournament to reach the tournament. What else do you want?.....reseeding the field after each round? I know that you know this....but, you offer no possible solution. Its impossible to have a state tournament without having some sort of qualifying tourney. I know your response will be that we need better alignments.....well, do we realign every year? Kids graduate and teams get better and worse each year and there is no way on God's green Earth that there is a way to set up 4 regions where they are perfectly and evenly matched to where the absolute top 16 wrestlers make the tourney in each and every weight class.

How about focus on fixing the obvious and fixable problems such as the class system...........one championship group has something in the neighborhood of 30 teams while the other championship group has somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 teams. Also, how is it possible to award a Single A or AA state team championship when schools from within those divisions can knock each other out of the state tournament?

[Bearhugger]

You do realize that there are plenty varsity wrestlers (that didnt make the tourney) who have also beaten some state tourney wrestlers as well don't you?

Of course I realize it. We have extra tough regions and extra weak regions. That was acknowledged in the Last Chance Qualifier overview. Your point is a solid reason why the LCQ is a good thing.

i dont honestly think that you really believe some of the things you say. You think you can change regional alignments and jv wrestlers being able to wrestle in the state tournament? I can't think of any sport on any level that doesn't have some sort of qualifying tournament to reach the tournament. What else do you want?.....reseeding the field after each round? I know that you know this....but, you offer no possible solution. Its impossible to have a state tournament without having some sort of qualifying tourney. I know your response will be that we need better alignments.....well, do we realign every year? Kids graduate and teams get better and worse each year and there is no way on God's green Earth that there is a way to set up 4 regions where they are perfectly and evenly matched to where the absolute top 16 wrestlers make the tourney in each and every weight class.

How about focus on fixing the obvious and fixable problems such as the class system...........one championship group has something in the neighborhood of 30 teams while the other championship group has somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 teams. Also, how is it possible to award a Single A or AA state team championship when schools from within those divisions can knock each other out of the state tournament?

1. I never said to change or eliminate the existing regional system.
2. I proposed the LCQ and gave many problems that it would solve. All it does is add a maximum of 14 wrestlers to the existing (and weak) state qualification process.

As for the regions, the severity of the current AAA situation could be reduced. We have the three strongest programs in 30+ years (South, PHS and Huntington) piled into the same region 4. We have probably three of the weakest programs (Capital, South Charleston and Princeton) piled into the same region 3. Region 4 yields top 10 ranked wrestlers who do not qualify for the state tournament. Region 3 yields state tournament byes.

I will repeat, region 4 yields top 10 ranked wrestlers who do not qualify for the state tournament. Region 3 yields state tournament byes.

[Geoswaff]

I understand where your coming from and I am sure with the scrutiny that Indy probably gets that everything was done correctly. I just think that the LCQ system your proposing weighs in the favor of a few schools who have larger teams with extra wrestlers. It is unfortunate for individuals who are elite JV, but that happens with many sports. I like the general idea of your LCQ as long as JV is taken out of the equation. Every school should get a chance to qualify a single wrestler at each weight class.

Single A Greenbrier West had two wrestlers, Foley and Dorsey(Varsity and JV) meet in the 182 finals at the Braxton County Invitational. I was at the tournament briefly. Many schools but few wrestlers competing. If JV wrestlers were not allowed to compete, then the bracketed tournament might have got demoted to a duals meet.

Anyway, GW's Foley won the tournament. However, I have not seen his name in the scores much since then. Dorsey has qualified for the state tournament.

If JV is taken out of the equation, then the LCQ loses its effectiveness.

In other sports(here we go again), elite JV get put in the varsity game. Players alternate plays in football all the time. Players come off the bench in basketball and play big portions of the game.

Sorry but that’s not apples to apples. Braxton County Invitational is not the state tournament.

[Watchingdamat]

This wrestler deserves to be in the State tournament. BUT, let's not forget, 2 of the 4 wrestlers mentioned in the original thread transferred in from another program, along with others from schools like Midland Trail and Greenbrier East. With this many wrestlers joining the program, at some point those conversations were had....you can't have it both ways. If the program is ok with this young man being JV, and waiting his turn, then that is the way it should be. It was their choice.

[WrestlingFan1]

This wrestler deserves to be in the State tournament. BUT, let's not forget, 2 of the 4 wrestlers mentioned in the original thread transferred in from another program, along with others from schools like Midland Trail and Greenbrier East. With this many wrestlers joining the program, at some point those conversations were had....you can't have it both ways. If the program is ok with this young man being JV, and waiting his turn, then that is the way it should be. It was their choice.

I read on another post that Indy qualified all 14 wrestlers, so I guess the coaches are fine with him missing the state tournament. I think he is a ninth grader so I'm sure he'll get plenty of state tournament matches in the future. I seem to remember him having a brother who won a couple of matches, so I'd say they are familiar with the process.