Seeding the State Tournament - Hybrid Pill

[Bearhugger]

The two best wrestlers in a given weight class are either in the same region or they are in a different region.

When they are in the same region, the pill always separates the two best wrestlers. This aspect of the pill needs to be kept.

On the other hand, the pill can allow for the two best wrestlers to meet in the semi finals. THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.

How do we do it?

We seed the regional champions and then we use “pill logic” to fill in the brackets.

In the 16 man state tournament bracket, the regional champions are placed in positions: one, five, nine and thirteen. The pill is already doing this. The only change would be that humans would decide which regional champion is placed in positions 1, 5, 9 and 13.

Each weight class in the state tournament would have only four regional champions that need to be reviewed, discussed, debated, argued about and then seeded. In reality, the number one seed would usually be a no brainer. The fourth seed probably will be a no brainer too. There usually is a weak region for a given weight class. These two wrestlers would both be in the top bracket. Thus, the #2 and #3 seeds would be in the bottom bracket. There is really little reason to debate between which is the better. In reality, they will wrestle it out in the semifinals.

Once the seeding is complete, the two best wrestlers would be separated from each other. THE GOAL HAS BEEN MET. The number one argument against the pill has been eliminated. Do not let “perfect” be the enemy of “better”.

To walk through an example, I am using AAA 132 with the most current rankings.

#1 is Donahue of PHS, region 1.
#2 is Crewdson of St. Albans, region 4.
#3 is Sam Moore of George Washington, region 3.
The highest ranked wrestler from region 2 is #9 Hunter Miller of Hedgesville.

For this exercise, these are your four regional champions.

The region results will look like this:

Region 1
Champion = Donahue, Parkersburg
Runner Up = Gator
Third = Tucker
Fourth = Hank

Region 2
Champion = Miller, Hedgesville
Runner Up = Jessica
Third = Jacob
Fourth = Noah


Region 3
Champion = Moore, GW
Runner Up = Frank
Third = Liam
Fourth = Sam

Region 4
Champion = Crewdson, St. Albans
Runner Up = John
Third = Paul
Fourth = Ringo

A seeding committee could put these four regional champions in order and then give the corresponding coaches a period of time to argue their case. I really, really doubt this is going to be that big of a deal.

Based on head to head competition, rankings etc……your number one seed would be Donahue, PHS. He would go to bracket position number one. Your fourth seeded regional champion would be Miller, Hedgesville. He goes to bracket position number 5.

Crewdson beat Moore in head to head, so he is the #2 seed. He goes to bracket position number 13. Moore goes to position number 9.

At this point, the two best wrestlers (Donahue & Crewdson) have been separated. THE GOAL HAS NOW BEEN MET. Do not let “perfect” be the enemy of “better”.

The rest of the bracket can be filled in using the same logic as the pill.

It would look like this:

1. C1 Donahue
2. F2 Jessica
3. R3 Frank
4. T4 Paul
5. C2 Miller
6. F1 Hank
7. R4 John
8. T3 Liam
9. C3 Moore
10. F4 Ringo
11. R1 Gator
12. T2 Jacob
13. C4 Crewdson
14. F3 Sam
15. R2 Jessica
16. T1 Tucker

Another perspective could be that Donahue is the best and his corresponding region 1 runner up Gator is the second best. Well, they are separated in the brackets and should meet in the finals.

Now lets work through the scenarios, rules, etc that will be brought up.

1. The seeding criteria for the regional champions at the state tournament would be established in advance like usual.
2. Whereas AAA wrestlers only compete against AAA wrestlers in the state tournament, then AAA wins and losses could be one of the top criteria. Throw out all “out of state” wins and loses. Throw out all AA/A wins and losses. This will now simplify each AAA wrestler’s record, thus eliminate many arguments.
3. To expand on point 2 above, coaches need to start maintaining and communicating their wrestlers’ overall record and their “State Class” record. The state class record for AAA wrestlers would be their wins and losses against West Virginia AAA competition only.
4. If the best wrestler in the state gets headlocked and pinned in the regional tournament, well, he blew it. He blew his seed. He gets placed wherever the pill places him. This could mess up what we are trying to accomplish. Too bad. The best should win their region. The rule would be that only the regional champions get seeded and the rest get placed accordingly.

In conclusion, somebody brought up seeding the regional champions last year in the forum section. The idea is probably 20 years old. Lets do it!

Every technique has a counter. Every counter has a counter.

Bring on all the challenges and issues to the above. Every issue has an answer.

[admin]

Another solution is to just modify the rankings after the regionals, such that if it appears that #1 and #2 will meet in the semi's, then change the rankings, switch #2 and #3. This used to be done routinely with the rankings, but in recent years no such adjustment has been made. The reasoning was that if #1 and #2 meet in the semi's, then it would be impossible for them to finish #1 and #2, and so the rankings should be adjusted to reflect possible outcomes. Not all agreed with this adjustment, but there you have it.

[Bearhugger]

Another solution is to just modify the rankings after the regionals, such that if it appears that #1 and #2 will meet in the semi's, then change the rankings, switch #2 and #3. This used to be done routinely with the rankings, but in recent years no such adjustment has been made. The reasoning was that if #1 and #2 meet in the semi's, then it would be impossible for them to finish #1 and #2, and so the rankings should be adjusted to reflect possible outcomes. Not all agreed with this adjustment, but there you have it.

The rankings should not be used to to seed the four regional champions. Use records, head to head, records, returning champ, etc.

You wrestle the regional tournaments. You then seed the four champions. Seed these four guys and then let everything fall as the pill logic directs it.

Solves all problems.

[J.W.]

Bearhugger, good explanation, same thing I said in December when the topic came up. We actually used this same exact system to seed Kentucky Middle School States. Did it over a telephonic conference call Sunday after regions and took less than 2 hours, and that was with 90 plus schools involved.

[Sally]

Shouldn't we use Doc's rankings? They are already based on who beat who. Some weights are pretty clear cut while others are still undetermined.
I understand your process to seed the regional champs after regional results. But if we are to use Doc's rankings to determine the top 2 kids in the state so they are separated why not use them to help seed?
In one instance you want to use the rankings but after regionals are wrestled you don't use them. Maybe I misunderstood your post but it seems contradictory.

[Sally]

I do agree with bearhugger's number 3 above.
Posting results helps the sport in my opinion. Fans, family members, and opposition can follow the results from their phones. There are some teams who do not post much at all. Some of these teams who are hard to find have their only results loaded by a hosting tournament.

[mike.carman]

The problem would go away all together if it was a true second. Then there would be no need for seeding and the pill is fine. If you employ the logic of the automatic challenge match, then if the wrestler who comes in third was put in the consolations by the wrestler who wins first, then by default there is a challenge match for 2nd. If the 3rd place wrestler was put there by the wrestler who takes 2nd then there is no match. There are 4 championship rounds and 5 Consolation rounds with 28 total matches in a 16 man bracket. It would not add a match to every bracket, just some of them. With the tournament being 2+ days, no one would exceed the 5 match limit and if a challenge match was needed it would not add that much time to the bracket. Just hold awards to the very end or squeeze the match in a couple of weight classes later. There is way too much emphasis on rank and when they face each other.

[Sally]

Personally I don't like the true second idea. I don't see the NCAA, World, or Olympic tournament doing this. Plenty of times we see the possible/projected champions knocked off before ever reaching the finals.
Do any other states do this? I don't know.

Other reasons I don't like true second-
1. The state tournament should finish with the finals. Not finals then possible true second matchups.
2. Are we gonna expect a kid who just lost in the finals to be ready to battle for what they have already earned in the semis? The kid who earned 3rd got there for a reason.
3. Let's say your true second idea were in place. The finalist who got second place is injured and can't wrestle for 3rd so he has to default. That doesn't make sense to me.

[dunbar76]

Doc's solution makes sense and is easiest. I don't like a true(I call untrue) second either for the stated reasons above.

[RU4REAL]

dunbar76 -

Doc's solution and your agreement do not make sense, you are both admitting that the majority of people think two individuals are 1 and 2 and should have an opportunity at the state finals, clearly that would be the separation criteria, but since the pill which can do no analysis puts them on the same side the number 2's hardwork for the season meant nothing so we will just drop him to 3.

Again this is the lazy answer without considering the athletes work and effort and skill.

You both have proved the point that laziness by adults is more important that doing what is right for a wrestler that earned the number 2 spot / ranking /seed etc.

[Bearhugger]

I am surprised the direction that some of the comments have taken this topic.

I understand all of the "on any given day stuff". However, the #1 complaint against the pill is that it allows for the two best wrestlers to meet in the semifinals rather than the finals.

Rarely, is there a weight class where it is up for grabs between 4 or more wrestlers. Almost always, there is an overwhelming favorite. May times, there are the top two wrestlers.

If the regional tournaments are kept, then seed the regional champions. Let the wrestlers wrestle to determine who the regional champs are. Then take these four champions and seed them.

Or, forget the regions and seed 29 (or less) wrestlers in AAA.

OR...............leave it how it is and people will be complaining forever.

The new regions will create injustice for some kids next season. The increase in AA schools will create more injustice for some kids next season. We might as well keep the current injustice with the pill. Let the sport of wrestling in West Virginia deteriorate.

[Sally]

People will always complain. You can't use people being unhappy with the current system as a reason to change it. Indyhart posted facts and percentages on an earlier thread concerning the pill. Here's the link if you want to scroll down and read through it. I enjoyed it very much last month when it was posted.

http://wvmat.com/phpforum/viewtopic.php ... 9&start=30

Let us say that we decide to seed the state tournament. Using your 4 champion method from regionals and next year's alignment. I can foresee many people being upset when a champion from a "weaker" region receives a top 4 seed. Then a runner-up from a "stronger" region is simply placed using the pill.

Or for fun we can create a scenario where two of the regional champions have beaten each other during the season. These same two wrestlers are the "clear" favorites. Who gets the 1 seed and who gets the 2 seed? In a competitive weight class neither coach of the said wrestlers will want the 2 seed because of a tougher semifinal.

I see the positive ideals of your hybrid system. However it's not flawless or without error.

[Bearhugger]

People will always complain. You can't use people being unhappy with the current system as a reason to change it. Indyhart posted facts and percentages on an earlier thread concerning the pill. Here's the link if you want to scroll down and read through it. I enjoyed it very much last month when it was posted.

http://wvmat.com/phpforum/viewtopic.php ... 9&start=30

Let us say that we decide to seed the state tournament. Using your 4 champion method from regionals and next year's alignment. I can foresee many people being upset when a champion from a "weaker" region receives a top 4 seed. Then a runner-up from a "stronger" region is simply placed using the pill.

Or for fun we can create a scenario where two of the regional champions have beaten each other during the season. These same two wrestlers are the "clear" favorites. Who gets the 1 seed and who gets the 2 seed? In a competitive weight class neither coach of the said wrestlers will want the 2 seed because of a tougher semifinal.

I see the positive ideals of your hybrid system. However it's not flawless or without error.

I read IndyHart's comments on the day he posted them It was a very good post.

Again, the point is being lost. The goal is to only separate the two best wrestlers. The champion of a weak region might also be "weaker" himself. He is already being given a good position with the pill because he is facing a 4th place winner from another region.

My original post on this topic is just an expanded discussion of an old idea that solves the #1 problem. I have not ever read of a clear cut #2 problem with the pill.

Generally speaking, leaving things they way they always have been and failing to evolve with the times rarely ends up on a positive note.

[masonbailey]

I've also posted on here solutions, but another positive for the pill is the fact that there are no intentional losses in order to be seeded lower. I know in the hybrid pill it doesn't matter either, but if they see who the seeded wrestlers are going to be, it might benefit them better if they know or can predict on where they will fall.

Just another thought...

It's a tough situation to solve because there's always "gotta be something better".

With that being said, good luck to everyone this weekend!!

[Bearhugger]

I've also posted on here solutions, but another positive for the pill is the fact that there are no intentional losses in order to be seeded lower. I know in the hybrid pill it doesn't matter either, but if they see who the seeded wrestlers are going to be, it might benefit them better if they know or can predict on where they will fall.

Just another thought...

It's a tough situation to solve because there's always "gotta be something better".

With that being said, good luck to everyone this weekend!!

If the regional champions were seeded, I really doubt somebody is going to take a fall in an effort to hope for a better seed. If they did, we are kind of just getting back to where we are.

Good input.

[IndyHart]

To Mason's point, there was an instance a few years ago where the pill number was posted prior to all of the regions having completed their tournaments. I was refereeing the AA/A southern regional (I can't remember if it was 3 or 4 that year) when it happened. Some of the coaches at the tournament knew which pill it was and could figure out where it would put there guys based on how their finals matches turned out. There were some results in the upper weights that year that were inconsistent with how matches had turned out earlier in the season. I recall that it was a big controversy and that some things were tightened up about how the pill number got posted afterwards. If you had a predetermined method for placing wrestlers in the bracket, you would absolutely have kids that either didn't wrestle a match or lost on purpose at the regional tournament. It happened in the last week of the regular season in AA football this year. That is the biggest reason I favor the pill. It isn't subject to manipulation. You fall where you fall, and you wrestle from there.

For perspective, in 8 of the 14 weight classes at OVAC this year, the number one seed and number two seed met in the finals. At last year's state tournament, 15 of the 28 weight classes featured a finals match between the number one and number two ranked guy in the weight class in the pre-regional rankings. It isn't that I am anti-seeding. It's just that I have looked at it enough to know that seeding isn't significantly more likely to result in the best guys at a weight being separated than the pill. And it eliminates any incentive for guys to go wrestle easy schedules or dodge tough matches. And it eliminates the possibility of shenanigans at the regional tournaments.

[mscoach20]

Basing the state seeds on rankings is absolutely crazy. I would be very interested to see how often one met two in the semi's, and then the loser not take 3rd. I remember times where number one was beat in the semi's and ended up 4th and lower. They are rankings based on opinion and a few results. Putting any more weight in them other than letting the kids wrestle is just mind boggling to me.

[RU4REAL]

So pill supporters, I ask you if at your current job, your boss said for now on for promotions, we are going to draw a name out of a hat. Your performance all year means absolutely nothing, just luck of the draw. Vernon who shows up for work late every day, takes 14 smoke breaks, sits on the toilet for an hour has the same opportunity as you who gives 110 percent. Are you good with that? Most of you are coaches that say preparing kids for life is more important than wrestling itself. Yes you can say life isn't always fair and we are teaching that by utilization of the unfair pill, or we can teach that hardwork, preparation, and every minute of effort at work matters. But maybe some of you are the Vernon at work and like free handouts.

I say the hybrid pill at least tries to reward those who have earned the seed instead of lucked into it.

My smoke break is over, to the bathroom and back to work.

[south supporter]

RU4REAL - I usually don't have to much to say about the Pill, but your point about the promotions at work make no sense. If my boss drew names out of the hat to go up against one another that is totally fine. There is going to only be ONE promotion so it doesn't matter who I have to beat or when I still have to get through everybody. The Pill doesn't draw out the Champion and everybody else is wrestling for second so I think your post is pretty irrelevant.

I too get frustrated when 1 and 2 meets up in the Semis, but that is never going to change who the Champion is. One kid may get 2nd instead of 3rd but just like Ricky Bobby once said "If you are not first you are last". I say keep the pill how it is, but just make sure it is not drawn until after all the Regional Results have been posted.

[Sally]

I don't think that argument is valid. Just my opinion. Coaches share life lessons, teach about life, and try to put the best kid on the mat they can.

Comparing the "pill vs. seeding the top 4 from regionals" to the workplace are two different animals.

Besides we already have what you described in many professions. Nepotism has been around for a long time. Many places of employment are willing to reward the candidate they want vs. they best possible candidate. Look at the educational system for example. A teacher can teach as hard as they want and be paid the same as "Vernon".

Any wrestler who acts like "Vernon" won't qualify for the state tournament in the first place. Wrestling is one of the last places left where kids can earn their way. I disagree with folks who believe the Pill takes something away from kids in the semifinals. Maybe the Pill provides a greater sense of achievement instead.

[mscoach20]

Draw a promotion out of a hat? I object, your honor...relevance?

[dunbar76]

RU4real.....Thanks for the name calling me lazy and and not understanding of the hard work and skill needed. LOL, please spare me. Anyway, you may not agree the the answer, name calling dose nothing for the discussion. For the record, I'm a pill supporter. However, I do have an open mind if a issue comes up that a better fairer way can be discussed.

[coach_stump]

I had a state champion with multiply titles that declared to me that he wanted his toughest match in the semis to take away the hype of the finals. He never cared a hoot about the pill drawn. Yes, sometimes the pill was not kind to my team and individuals but it is what it is. We all want a great finals match for the entertainment of it but to me with every round is exciting to watch. And please, don't say that Dr. Miller is lazy, if not for him, WV wrestling would not be even mentioned except home town papers. He developed one of the best wrestling websites in the country.

[RU4REAL]

Nobody called any specific person lazy. I clearly stated that if everyone says Dunbar is number 2 in the state, and the pill puts him on the same side as number one, that his skill level dropped and he is now 3 is a lazy answer to defend using the pill to avoid looking at seasons accomplishments to attempt to properly seed. If your feelings are hurt, I apologize for having a different opinion and not agreeing with you and the pill deciding that a wrestlers skill level drops.

[dunbar76]

Feelings not hurt. Looking for productive discussion. Doc and I are old school and not lazy. Doc especially, he has run this website for many many years for no financial gain. It has unified WV wrestling and kept the lines of communication open.

[guard0544]

Its not that common for there to be two wrestlers who are clearly head and shoulders above everyone else in a weight class and those two wrestlers end up in the same side of the bracket. It may happen at times. But, not too often. In those rare times, if a wrestler gets 3rd instead of 2nd...so what. Get over it. Life goes on.

[Bearhugger]

The ideal solution is for many more of the programs, high schools and communities to promote and support the wrestlers more. If each weight class had 16 bad dudes, we wouldn't talk about separating the best two wrestlers.

[mscoach4]

As a fan I kinda like the pill, it creates two great nights of wrestling.

[Sally]

I'm going to make a prediction. When the pill is released Saturday there will be a LARGE increase of users, forum posts, and views on this website.
Bearhugger will defend his hybrid system. Opponents of the pill will find a few weight classes to help their argument. Proponents of the pill will do the same to strengthen their argument.
Maybe opinion is a better word.
In the end Coach Stump is right. It will be very exciting times for all wrestlers, coaches, and fans.
Thanks Doc Miller!!

[admin]

Thanks for the kind words.

As a matter of fact, I kinda enjoyed being lazy... <smile>