Wvywa 12 yr olds

[Goldenponyboy]

Brooke is a weight qualifier and that's the weekend if he 18th

[mike.carman]

I have read everyone of your posts with an open mind. I agree the information has not been communicated in a timely or effective manner. I also personally apologize for that. I appreciate your concern on this matter. I will give you a little history on this decision. First it was originally decided in our summer meeting along with splitting the middle school tournament from the elementary tournament and having it take place closer to the end of the middle school season. Upon further reflection the board was called to meet about this decision again in November to address the 12yr old 7th graders and whether to give them a choice as to which tournament they would prefer to attend. The board decided to merge the two tournaments back into one. That decision was 5-1 for uniting the tournaments again. We went on to vote whether to give our 7th grade 12 year olds their choice. On this the board was split 3-3. The deciding vote fell to me according to our by-laws. I thought about this a great deal before making my final decision and discussed it with the Vice President and the Secretary. My tie breaker vote was to leave the rule as is in regards to the 7th graders. I have a son in this very situation. His birthday is 8/31/2004 and he is in the 7th grade. I bring this up because this issue is close to me.

With that said, we will meet to discuss this tomorrow and if things change, I will post the change here and on our Facebook page. I will also post on both if they do not change.

[Wrestlewv]

I have read everyone of your posts with an open mind. I agree the information has not been communicated in a timely or effective manner. I also personally apologize for that. I appreciate your concern on this matter. I will give you a little history on this decision. First it was originally decided in our summer meeting along with splitting the middle school tournament from the elementary tournament and having it take place closer to the end of the middle school season. Upon further reflection the board was called to meet about this decision again in November to address the 12yr old 7th graders and whether to give them a choice as to which tournament they would prefer to attend. The board decided to merge the two tournaments back into one. That decision was 5-1 for uniting the tournaments again. We went on to vote whether to give our 7th grade 12 year olds their choice. On this the board was split 3-3. The deciding vote fell to me according to our by-laws. I thought about this a great deal before making my final decision and discussed it with the Vice President and the Secretary. My tie breaker vote was to leave the rule as is in regards to the 7th graders. I have a son in this very situation. His birthday is 8/31/2004 and he is in the 7th grade. I bring this up because this issue is close to me.

With that said, we will meet to discuss this tomorrow and if things change, I will post the change here and on our Facebook page. I will also post on both if they do not change.

If the tournaments were separated I understand but don't agree with the logic. You want to increase the size of the middle school tournament but that's not fair to the kids. However since it is 1 tournament as it should be it should be the kids choice if they are ready to move up.

I am glad to see that you have responded to the post and are addressing this with the organization. Thank you.

[Campion]

Thank you Mike for responding with the history of the decision and the willingness to revisit. Appreciate your leadership no matter how this turns out.

[Matmanwv]

I have read everyone of your posts with an open mind. I agree the information has not been communicated in a timely or effective manner. I also personally apologize for that. I appreciate your concern on this matter. I will give you a little history on this decision. First it was originally decided in our summer meeting along with splitting the middle school tournament from the elementary tournament and having it take place closer to the end of the middle school season. Upon further reflection the board was called to meet about this decision again in November to address the 12yr old 7th graders and whether to give them a choice as to which tournament they would prefer to attend. The board decided to merge the two tournaments back into one. That decision was 5-1 for uniting the tournaments again. We went on to vote whether to give our 7th grade 12 year olds their choice. On this the board was split 3-3. The deciding vote fell to me according to our by-laws. I thought about this a great deal before making my final decision and discussed it with the Vice President and the Secretary. My tie breaker vote was to leave the rule as is in regards to the 7th graders. I have a son in this very situation. His birthday is 8/31/2004 and he is in the 7th grade. I bring this up because this issue is close to me.

With that said, we will meet to discuss this tomorrow and if things change, I will post the change here and on our Facebook page. I will also post on both if they do not change.

Thank you for your attention to this issue.

[WVYWA]

This rule will be suspended for this season and readdressed at our first meeting after the conclusion of the 2017 State Tournament. I encourage anyone who wants to have input or has questions to attend our meeting at the State Tournament immediately following weigh ins on Friday night. As of right now if you are 12 years old you may wrestle 12U regardless of what grade you are in.

The West Virginia Youth Wrestling Association (“WVYWA”) appreciates the feedback on the rule as it relates to Seventh and Eighth Graders. The rule change was vigorously debated by the Region Chairs prior to adoption at multiple meetings. The change to the rule is meant to foster the WVYWA’s two overarching goals. First, to improve the sport of wrestling in West Virginia. Second, to prepare our youth wrestlers for high school wrestling. After the first year of the WVYWA, considerable feedback was received related to wrestlers who competed in middle school with nightly practices throughout the season that then dropped down to wrestle the 11/12 division at the WVYWA State Championships. A considerable number of parents and coaches felt and feel that this was a significant advantage to the wrestlers who had middle school coaching and practicing. There was also concern over the ability of 12 year old seventh graders participating on a middle school team to attend a qualifying tournament to establish a base weight for the 11/12 division. Given that wrestlers competing in 9th grade will have to compete against sophomores, juniors and seniors in high school, the rule change was an effort to alleviate the concerns of these coaches and parents, balance competition, and provide a transition from age based divisions in youth wrestling to a singular grade based division (high school). With that said, the WVYWA recognizes the various desires and abilities of the various youth wrestlers and families in the State of West Virginia and will strive to provide responsive decisions and action when necessary to facilitate the sport of wrestling in West Virginia. Although the BOD stands behind the rule changed debated and passed and recommends all 7th and 8th graders wrestle in the middle school division, the BOD desires to alleviate any concern West Virginia parents and wrestlers may have related to this rule change. As such, any wrestler that has been effected by this rule and that is otherwise eligible to wrestle the 11/12 division shall be permitted to do so regardless of grade.

Wrestlers desiring to compete in the 11/12 division must still establish their base weight. This can be done a couple of ways. First, through a qualifying tournament held during the season. Second, the wrestler can contact their Region Chair to arrange a date and time to establish base weight in accordance with WVYWA Rules found on www.wvmat.com. Last, arrangements are being made for certain member tournaments the week of February 18 and 19 to record base weights for wrestlers. The Brooke Cubs 4th Annual Hannah Mozingo Memorial Tournament and Tony Williams Memorial Tournament in Grafton will both be available to establish base weights. The WVYWA is trying to obtain permission for other tournaments in the State that weekend to record base weights as well. Please check the WVYWA Facebook site to see if more tournaments become available to establish base weights. Finally, the Regional Entry forms will be updated on www.wvmat.com to reflect this change.

Thank you for the feedback and the continued support.

West Virginia Youth Wrestling Association Board of Directors

Region I. Todd Shelak – Wheeling Wrestling;
Region II. Chuck Satterfield – East Fairmont Youth Wrestling;
Region III. Anthony Realbuto – Iron Eagles;
Region IV. Tim Casto – Braxton County Youth Wrestling;
Region V. Vint Eden – The Hill Youth Wrestling;
Region IV. Jason Andrick – Knights (Point Pleasant) Youth Wrestling Club.

[Mrsadventurewv]

I just don't get the issue, if your kid has wrestled all year as a varsity wrestler in middle school, they should wrestle middle school. When they get to high school are you going to complain that the upperclassman are too developed and its not fair and want you kid to wrestle down to middle school? It should be that ALL VARSITY middle school should be required to wrestle middle school no matter what age or grade...any JV or alternates could then choose to go down or wrestle middle school. Also, trust me when I tell you that from my experience, youth wrestlers are more prepared and get wayyyyy more coaching than middle school kids....its very hard to get matches in an open tournament outside of the middle school duals or tournaments, so youth wrestlers usually have way more mat time in that regard. The only advantage for middle school that I see is that they get 5 day a week practices, so they do have more practice time. But overall as a youth my wrestler got more coaching due to the sheer number of coaches and parent volunteers, the wrestler to coach ratio was way better. as a middle schooler, there is usually a max number of coaches allowed in the wrestling room. Just my 2 cents

[Wrestlewv]

Not all 7 th grade 12 year olds are varsity. Mostly the issue is maturity and growth between 12 and 14-15 year olds. Once the go to high school you still have an age difference but the development of a 9th grader is closer to the upper classmen than it is in middle school.

[RWWS]

If they are in 7th grade they should wrestle middle school period. Honestly grade shouldn't even matter do 11-12 and 13-15 like most open tournaments. Who cares what grade they are in. I am sure some 14 year old freshmen out there have wrestled 18 year old seniors. WVYWA early in was discussing showcasing the middle school and now they have reduced middle school to just 8th grade and a hand full of kids that turn 13 early in 7th grade. So the middle school is pretty much just 8th graders.

[J.W.]

Well if they are 12, they qualify for 11 and 12. If they are in 7th grade, they qualify for 6th-8th grade. So if they qualify for both, but can only compete in one, I think giving the parent / athlete the choice is the right answer. Or have a middle school 6th-8th tournament separate and earlier than the end of March and then 12 year Olds would just be able to do both.

Or have a rule that if a 12 year old places top 6 in the earlier middle school tourney, they are not eligible for the youth division. If they don't place they are allowed to wrestle both.

[RWWS]

Or we can take the confusion out of it and make it by age or middle school.

[oroyos]

Sounds like a few people just want a cheap title without having to work for it

[Wrestlewv]

Sounds like a few people just want a cheap title without having to work for it

I think most people with integrity will enter where they(kids and parents) feel is best for them. I don't think the ones who can hang and have a ligit chance with the 13-15 year olds are going to enter the 11-12 group although the should be able to based on age. The "studs" aren't going to want a "cheap" title as you called it but the kids who aren't quite to that next level and still need to work hard at the age they are with want to be in the age group they are in. If you and your kid are in the situation then by all means wrestle up.

[Campion]

I don't think any 12 yr old wants to wrestle anyone other than the best at their age. Why wouldn't they?

[RWWS]

It's just my opinion that if a wrestler is in 7th grade he/she should wrestle middle school division.

[figure4match]

Well if they are 12, they qualify for 11 and 12. If they are in 7th grade, they qualify for 6th-8th grade. So if they qualify for both, but can only compete in one, I think giving the parent / athlete the choice is the right answer. Or have a middle school 6th-8th tournament separate and earlier than the end of March and then 12 year Olds would just be able to do both.

Or have a rule that if a 12 year old places top 6 in the earlier middle school tourney, they are not eligible for the youth division. If they don't place they are allowed to wrestle both.

Not a bad idea on a middle school grade base tournament!!

How many kids are going to wrestle in the middle school division this year? If it's an age base tournament then that's what it should be...

[matcoach90]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

[mike.carman]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

The rule we put in place is essentially to do just that. We have suspended the rule for this year only because we were unable to get the rule change to the masses. We will re-evaluate the rule this summer to make sure it is written how we want it. The feeling you have expressed is exactly what we talked about and continue to talk about in our meetings. The reason we suspended the rule for this year is due to the back lash from people not knowing about it. The board voted to suspend this rule based on this information. The rule technically is still the rule, it just won't be enforced this year which allows kids who are 12 years old to wrestle 12U regardless of grade.

In the future, I would like to propose to the board that we adopt this rule. "If you turn 12 before August 1st entering your 7th grade year, you will not be able to compete in 12U division. This introduces a number of verification problems of which I am aware of, however, it aligns with the WVSSAC rule that states," If you turn 15 before August 1st of your 8th grade year, you are ineligible for middle school competition." We would probably need to adopt this rule as well to not encourage hold backs. There is a great deal to discuss, but it would allow kids that enter grades early a chance to compete in an age appropriate tournament. The WVSSAC rule goes on to state the same applies for 16yr old 9th graders for Junior High(which we don't have anymore) and 19yr old Seniors for High School.

It might not be a bad idea to hybrid this rule for all the age groups or something similar. Either way, rest assured we are trying to make the divisions as competitive as possible and try to get kids used to a more High School structured environment to allow for a more smooth transition from elementary to middle school to high school.

I appreciate all opinions expressed both positive and negative. We are striving to do things according to what the people of this state want while trying to conform somewhat to what the WVSSAC is doing as well.

[Campion]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

What advantage did they have?

Here is some facts... Some 7th grade wrestlers who are 12 are younger than 12 year olds in 6th grade... Most Middle Schools can barely field a team. Most middle schools can't even fill out a roster, let alone have kids to even practice. Also, most middle school coaches volunteer so that the school can even have a team because nobody else would do it. Youth programs and wrestling clubs get much better training and practice time and that is where my son learned to wrestle. More first hand experience and observation.

[mike.carman]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

What advantage did they have?

Here is some facts... Some 7th grade wrestlers who are 12 are younger than 12 year olds in 6th grade... Most Middle Schools can barely field a team. Most middle schools can't even fill out a roster, let alone have kids to even practice. Also, most middle school coaches volunteer so that the school can even have a team because nobody else would do it. Youth programs and wrestling clubs get much better training and practice time and that is where my son learned to wrestle. More first hand experience and observation.

Ah, but this is not the complaint we are getting. If what you are saying is true, and I do agree with you that it is, then why are we getting complaints about 12 year olds wrestling 15 year olds in the middle school bracket? I am for letting the child and parents choose, however, I am not the only voice, nor do I have a vote unless the board is tied. Make sure your regional representative knows what your opinion is so they can voice it at our meetings. They are all willing to talk to anyone. They may have their own opinions and that is okay, but they are there to represent you. Get involved and let them know what you like and don't like. They are listening.

If you happen to be in the minority opinion on a topic, don't take it personal as it is not meant to be.

[Campion]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

What advantage did they have?

Here is some facts... Some 7th grade wrestlers who are 12 are younger than 12 year olds in 6th grade... Most Middle Schools can barely field a team. Most middle schools can't even fill out a roster, let alone have kids to even practice. Also, most middle school coaches volunteer so that the school can even have a team because nobody else would do it. Youth programs and wrestling clubs get much better training and practice time and that is where my son learned to wrestle. More first hand experience and observation.

Ah, but this is not the complaint we are getting. If what you are saying is true, and I do agree with you that it is, then why are we getting complaints about 12 year olds wrestling 15 year olds in the middle school bracket? I am for letting the child and parents choose, however, I am not the only voice, nor do I have a vote unless the board is tied. Make sure your regional representative knows what your opinion is so they can voice it at our meetings. They are all willing to talk to anyone. They may have their own opinions and that is okay, but they are there to represent you. Get involved and let them know what you like and don't like. They are listening.

If you happen to be in the minority opinion on a topic, don't take it personal as it is not meant to be.

Nothing personal taken. I have personally invested thousands of hours in developing young wrestlers and sometimes I cannot believe what I hear or see. The only advantage any wrestler would have, regardless of age, is better training and/or more mat time (experience). That could come from many team and program affiliations. And if your getting complaints about 12 year olds wrestling 15 year olds, are you also getting complaints of 12 year olds wrestling 12 year olds? Maybe I missed something. I thought that was what drove the mid-season change.

[Wrestlewv]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

One problem with the varsity clause is that if a kid is varsity by default due to lack of kids on a team. Middle school in my community only had 6 kids so they all were varsity not because of talent level or training.

[Wrestlewv]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

The rule we put in place is essentially to do just that. We have suspended the rule for this year only because we were unable to get the rule change to the masses. We will re-evaluate the rule this summer to make sure it is written how we want it. The feeling you have expressed is exactly what we talked about and continue to talk about in our meetings. The reason we suspended the rule for this year is due to the back lash from people not knowing about it. The board voted to suspend this rule based on this information. The rule technically is still the rule, it just won't be enforced this year which allows kids who are 12 years old to wrestle 12U regardless of grade.

In the future, I would like to propose to the board that we adopt this rule. "If you turn 12 before August 1st entering your 7th grade year, you will not be able to compete in 12U division. This introduces a number of verification problems of which I am aware of, however, it aligns with the WVSSAC rule that states," If you turn 15 before August 1st of your 8th grade year, you are ineligible for middle school competition." We would probably need to adopt this rule as well to not encourage hold backs. There is a great deal to discuss, but it would allow kids that enter grades early a chance to compete in an age appropriate tournament. The WVSSAC rule goes on to state the same applies for 16yr old 9th graders for Junior High(which we don't have anymore) and 19yr old Seniors for High School.

It might not be a bad idea to hybrid this rule for all the age groups or something similar. Either way, rest assured we are trying to make the divisions as competitive as possible and try to get kids used to a more High School structured environment to allow for a more smooth transition from elementary to middle school to high school.

I appreciate all opinions expressed both positive and negative. We are striving to do things according to what the people of this state want while trying to conform somewhat to what the WVSSAC is doing as well.

I think following the wvssac rule using August 1 is a great idea. I think the more we can grow and follow the lead of the wvssac we might get more support on the middle school level for a middle school state championship that will be recognized by the wvssac.

[J.W.]

12 year old 7th grader weighs 69 pounds, wrestles for his middle school team against kids that weigh in 11 pounds heavier all year (2 pound allowance). Gets beat on most of the year due to size. Finally has an opportunity to wrestle at his weight and his age, told no because you got man handled all year because you are smaller so that is how you need to finish this year. Makes no sense to me, but maybe I am wrong. Can go to Nationals and wrestle in a 12 year old division and it is fair but not in your own state youth tournament, hmmmm?

Now I realize the rule was changed for this year, but this same scenario will exist every year and you have to take those kids into consideration.

[mike.carman]

12 year old 7th grader weighs 69 pounds, wrestles for his middle school team against kids that weigh in 11 pounds heavier all year (2 pound allowance). Gets beat on most of the year due to size. Finally has an opportunity to wrestle at his weight and his age, told no because you got man handled all year because you are smaller so that is how you need to finish this year. Makes no sense to me, but maybe I am wrong. Can go to Nationals and wrestle in a 12 year old division and it is fair but not in your own state youth tournament, hmmmm?

Now I realize the rule was changed for this year, but this same scenario will exist every year and you have to take those kids into consideration.

This is one of my biggest concerns moving forward.

[Matmanwv]

12 year old 7th grader weighs 69 pounds, wrestles for his middle school team against kids that weigh in 11 pounds heavier all year (2 pound allowance). Gets beat on most of the year due to size. Finally has an opportunity to wrestle at his weight and his age, told no because you got man handled all year because you are smaller so that is how you need to finish this year. Makes no sense to me, but maybe I am wrong. Can go to Nationals and wrestle in a 12 year old division and it is fair but not in your own state youth tournament, hmmmm?

Now I realize the rule was changed for this year, but this same scenario will exist every year and you have to take those kids into consideration.

This is one of my biggest concerns moving forward.

I think the simplest solution is wrestle based on age either as you said August 1st to follow Wvssac or age day of the tournament.
Everyone wants to talk about what grade someone is in when that really doesn't matter. Keep the playing field even as possible has to be based on age due to growth and maturity.
Keep the option for the "studs" to be allowed to wrestle up if they choose to do so. As I said from the beginning of this post it should be the wrestlers choice.

[figure4match]

12 year old 7th grader weighs 69 pounds, wrestles for his middle school team against kids that weigh in 11 pounds heavier all year (2 pound allowance). Gets beat on most of the year due to size. Finally has an opportunity to wrestle at his weight and his age, told no because you got man handled all year because you are smaller so that is how you need to finish this year. Makes no sense to me, but maybe I am wrong. Can go to Nationals and wrestle in a 12 year old division and it is fair but not in your own state youth tournament, hmmmm?

Now I realize the rule was changed for this year, but this same scenario will exist every year and you have to take those kids into consideration.

Can't agree with you more J.W.. Middle School tournaments are grade base tournaments. I don't know of any state that holds their State Tournament as a grade base tournament. If you want to have a Middle School State Tournament make it grade base and have it as a open for kids that do not have a middle school to wrestle for and everyone within that grade range and from WV can wrestle in it. Just keep out the High School Freshman.

[mike.carman]

12 year old 7th grader weighs 69 pounds, wrestles for his middle school team against kids that weigh in 11 pounds heavier all year (2 pound allowance). Gets beat on most of the year due to size. Finally has an opportunity to wrestle at his weight and his age, told no because you got man handled all year because you are smaller so that is how you need to finish this year. Makes no sense to me, but maybe I am wrong. Can go to Nationals and wrestle in a 12 year old division and it is fair but not in your own state youth tournament, hmmmm?

Now I realize the rule was changed for this year, but this same scenario will exist every year and you have to take those kids into consideration.

Can't agree with you more J.W.. Middle School tournaments are grade base tournaments. I don't know of any state that holds their State Tournament as a grade base tournament. If you want to have a Middle School State Tournament make it grade base and have it as a open for kids that do not have a middle school to wrestle for and everyone within that grade range and from WV can wrestle in it. Just keep out the High School Freshman.

PA and OH have Junior High tournaments that are 7th and 8th grade tournaments. PA allows freshman who do not make their HS teams to wrestle Jr High. Some could be as old as 16 by now. PA also allows 12 year olds their choice to wrestle elementary or junior high.

I can't speak for Ohio because I don't know what they allow but I am pretty sure if you wrestle on your Junior High team you must go to the junior high qualifiers and such.

National opens are based on age, yes. But dual national duals are based on grade. If you are a 12 year old and in the seventh grade you cannot wrestle the elementary division at national duals.

Not saying I agree or disagree with either of you.

[matcoach90]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

What advantage did they have?

Here is some facts... Some 7th grade wrestlers who are 12 are younger than 12 year olds in 6th grade... Most Middle Schools can barely field a team. Most middle schools can't even fill out a roster, let alone have kids to even practice. Also, most middle school coaches volunteer so that the school can even have a team because nobody else would do it. Youth programs and wrestling clubs get much better training and practice time and that is where my son learned to wrestle. More first hand experience and observation.

The advantage was that they saw more difficult competition wrestling varsity as a 12 year old, wrestled stronger/older kids throughout the season, and depending where you go to school, better coaching. However, I realize not every middle school has great coaching. Anyway, you can't tell me that that varsity 12 year old, whether they lost or won during middle school competition, wasn't better prepared via being "forged in the fire". Not unlike taking your wrestlers to compete in PA and OH to hone their skills against better competition instead of living your wrestling life within a 30 mile radius. However, I do understand the lighter/younger wrestler having to get beat all year on varsity, then not being allowed to finally wrestle kids his age at the end of the season. I guess we have some integrity issues with those 12 year olds who are more advanced and choose to take the easy route to trophies and championships instead of continuing to push themselves. Double edged sword...

[mike.carman]

I witnessed this with several wrestlers this past weekend at Jr. States. I know there was a 13-15 and 11-12 age group and you had to wrestle your age... but the 12 year olds that I know of who wrestle Middle School Varsity during the season had a distinct advantage over the other kids in their weight class and age group in most cases. I realize there are exceptions. There should be a rule that if you wrestle varsity during the season, you must wrestle middle school division in the WVYWA. Anyway, that's just my opinion from first hand observations.

What advantage did they have?

Here is some facts... Some 7th grade wrestlers who are 12 are younger than 12 year olds in 6th grade... Most Middle Schools can barely field a team. Most middle schools can't even fill out a roster, let alone have kids to even practice. Also, most middle school coaches volunteer so that the school can even have a team because nobody else would do it. Youth programs and wrestling clubs get much better training and practice time and that is where my son learned to wrestle. More first hand experience and observation.

The advantage was that they saw more difficult competition wrestling varsity as a 12 year old, wrestled stronger/older kids throughout the season, and depending where you go to school, better coaching. However, I realize not every middle school has great coaching. Anyway, you can't tell me that that varsity 12 year old, whether they lost or won during middle school competition, wasn't better prepared via being "forged in the fire". Not unlike taking your wrestlers to compete in PA and OH to hone their skills against better competition instead of living your wrestling life within a 30 mile radius. However, I do understand the lighter/younger wrestler having to get beat all year on varsity, then not being allowed to finally wrestle kids his age at the end of the season. I guess we have some integrity issues with those 12 year olds who are more advanced and choose to take the easy route to trophies and championships instead of continuing to push themselves. Double edged sword...

I don't necessarily think integrity or the lack there of is the driving force here. I think it's fear. Fear of taking a loss or fear of failure or fear that the child will not continue on if they take a bad loss. If they are not prepared to take a bad loss and move on, I submit to you that we as the adults are not doing our jobs in preparing them for this. After all failure is the best teacher. Failure should motivate you to work harder so you don't fail again.

Just my opinion.