wvmat.com

From the Editor:

Received this Item from Coach Bill Archer:

"In the high school rule book you receive 4 points for a default, forfeit, DQ or fall. A single wrestler in a state tournament would receive 4-7-13-6 for a max of 30 points. Wrestlers in the state tournament receive all points as if it was a full 16 bracket tournament. There are no byes in the state tournament in cons or championship brackets. Which ever it is default, forfeit or dq.

Years ago both semi finalist were DQ in their match. Other semi-finalist winner won by default in finals, there was no 2nd and no 6th."

Bill Archer

To which I replied:
"That would apply to the championship bracket. 2 points bonus for the default, forfeit, DQ or fall, and 2 advancement points = 4. However, in the consolation bracket, advancement is one point. It would be 2 points bonus for the default, forfeit, DQ or fall +1=3. Right? Thirty points max is correct, but I don' see where the 4-7-13-6 comes from."

To which he replied:
"This is the score by rounds of the tournament, (In the top bracket, for a wrestler going all the way to a championship). This is the points that are given by every or computer program. As soon as 6th is the worse you can get you get 3 for 6th as soon as 2nd is as low as you can get, you get 12."

OK, I get it now.

Rulebook says
http://wvmat.com/overview.htm

Placement points: Tournament scoring 6 places: 16-12-9-7-5-3

Individual placement points shall be awarded as soon as earned. Placement points already earned shall be deducted in case of forfeit (other than injury) or disqualification from the tournament.

In view of the rule requiring placement points to be added as soon as earned, placement points are added at the following junctures in a tournament scoring 6 places:

Championship quarterfinal winners: Add 3 points (has earned at least 6th place)
Championship semifinal winners: Add 9 points (has earned at least 2nd place, already received 3 points)
Championship final winners: Add 4 points

Consolation quarterfinal winners: Add 3 points (has earned at least 6th place)
Consolation semifinal winners: Add 4 points (has earned at least 4th place, already received 3 points)
Consolation final winners (for third): Add 2 points

Winner of final for 5-6: Add 2 points

So, for the wrestler in the top bracket at the state tournament going all the way:

Wins first match by default, forfeit, DQ or fall: 2 advancement + 2 bonus = 4 points

Wins 2nd match (quarterfinal) default, forfeit, DQ or fall: 2 advancement + 2 bonus + 3 place (has earned at least 6th place) = 7 points.

Wins semifinal default, forfeit, DQ or fall: 2 advancement + 2 bonus + 9 place (has earned at least second, already received 3) = 13 points.

Wins final default, forfeit, DQ or fall: 2 bonus + 4 place (has already received 12) = 6 points.

And so, the points scored by round by someone scoring max points at the State Tournament is 4-7-13-6, which is, er, um, exactly what Coach Archer said to start with.
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This topic has come up for discussion in this forum recently, as some speculate that there may be empty slots in the State Tournament this year, as a result of some regions only having 3 wrestlers to qualify. We will see.

The issue is whether to score such an empty slot as a BYE or a default/forfeit.

The ruling is, empty slots in the State Tournament are scored as a forfeit, not a BYE. There are no BYEs in the State Tournament.

If it were scored as a BYE, the wrestler who draws the empty slot would be put at a disadvantage since there is no match wrestled. There is no opportunity to score bonus team points by winning by fall, tech, or major decision.

Empty slots in the top bracket would be paired with Regional Champs, who, as we know, often win the first match with bonus points.

(Well, that post was much too long....)

That clears up a lot Doc. Thanks!!

Very good, however, the real problem to clear up is finding a way to get these open slots filled with wrestlers to wrestle. Make the winners(point collectors) earn the points.

I am going to start a movement called "Actual Wrestlers Wrestling Matters".

I am going to lead a march on the steps of the WSACC after the first individual poll is released and we see the potential ranked wrestlers from tough regions destined to stay home while corresponding regions cannot dig up 4 wrestlers in certain weight classes to get a free pass to Huntington.

Go Bear Go
And take Gator with you,

Frank wrote:Go Bear Go
And take Gator with you,

Just stir your route away from any Tudor s, Gator can t drive by a Tuders with out stoping

Bearhugger wrote:Very good, however, the real problem to clear up is finding a way to get these open slots filled with wrestlers to wrestle. Make the winners(point collectors) earn the points.

I will borrow the logic of those who strongly support a forfeit in a dual setting counting as a win on the individual wrestlers season record because the wrestler showed up and made weight. If the wrestler at the state tournament faces no one in the opening round he still earned the "win" and therefore the points because he showed up and made weight. Nothing to worry about here!

guard0544 wrote:

Bearhugger wrote:Very good, however, the real problem to clear up is finding a way to get these open slots filled with wrestlers to wrestle. Make the winners(point collectors) earn the points.

I will borrow the logic of those who strongly support a forfeit in a dual setting counting as a win on the individual wrestlers season record because the wrestler showed up and made weight. If the wrestler at the state tournament faces no one in the opening round he still earned the "win" and therefore the points because he showed up and made weight. Nothing to worry about here!

Your logic is sound. I would not allow this great sport to deteriorate to hosting a state tournament with byes.

Bearhugger wrote:

guard0544 wrote:

Bearhugger wrote:Very good, however, the real problem to clear up is finding a way to get these open slots filled with wrestlers to wrestle. Make the winners(point collectors) earn the points.

I will borrow the logic of those who strongly support a forfeit in a dual setting counting as a win on the individual wrestlers season record because the wrestler showed up and made weight. If the wrestler at the state tournament faces no one in the opening round he still earned the "win" and therefore the points because he showed up and made weight. Nothing to worry about here!

Your logic is sound. I would not allow this great sport to deteriorate to hosting a state tournament with byes.

I'm with you on believing there should be mechanisms in place to allow quality 5th place wrestlers from another region to fill in any empty slots left from another region not having 4 qualifiers. It would not be very difficult to do. Simply look at those who placed 5th in the other regional tournaments at the given weight class and...on some solid pre-established criteria, one of them would be selected to fill the slot.

guard0544 wrote:

Bearhugger wrote:

guard0544 wrote:
I will borrow the logic of those who strongly support a forfeit in a dual setting counting as a win on the individual wrestlers season record because the wrestler showed up and made weight. If the wrestler at the state tournament faces no one in the opening round he still earned the "win" and therefore the points because he showed up and made weight. Nothing to worry about here!

Your logic is sound. I would not allow this great sport to deteriorate to hosting a state tournament with byes.

I'm with you on believing there should be mechanisms in place to allow quality 5th place wrestlers from another region to fill in any empty slots left from another region not having 4 qualifiers. It would not be very difficult to do. Simply look at those who placed 5th in the other regional tournaments at the given weight class and...on some solid pre-established criteria, one of them would be selected to fill the slot.

I figure an agreed upon solution could be settled in less than 1 hour. Get it approved and then make it happen. This season, we might be talking 2 to 5 weight classes. I figure the "chosen 5th place winner" would be a no brainer in 80% of the weight classes.

Note from Coach Bill Archer:

RE: 5th place taking empty slots:

The first rule you need to change is "each region shall only have 4 wrestlers per weight class."

Next big problem is to decide what 5th place wrestler you let come.

When I checked the last time I could not find a state that lets another region fill in for a region that is short.

This has been discussed several times over the years.

Bill Archer

admin wrote:Note from Coach Bill Archer:

RE: 5th place taking empty slots:

The first rule you need to change is "each region shall only have 4 wrestlers per weight class."

Next big problem is to decide what 5th place wrestler you let come.

When I checked the last time I could not find a state that lets another region fill in for a region that is short.

This has been discussed several times over the years.

Bill Archer

PLEASE SEE MY COMMENTS IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS:

The first rule you need to change is "each region shall only have 4 wrestlers per weight class."
THEN IT SHOULD BE CHANGED SINCE THERE ARE SOME REGIONS THAT HAVE WEIGHT CLASSES WITH ONLY 2 TO 3 WRESTLERS. RULES GET CHANGED EVERY SEASON. A FEW GET CHANGED AND NOBODY SEEMS TO KNOW ANY SPECIFIC REASONS WHY. WE KNOW WHY THIS RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.

Next big problem is to decide what 5th place wrestler you let come.
THIS IS NOT A BIG PROBLEM. THIS IS AN EASY FIX. 1. TAKE THE HIGHEST RANKED 5TH PLACE WINNER FROM THE OTHER THREE REGIONS. 2. TAKE THE 5TH PLACE WINNER WITH THE BEST RECORD. 3. ESTABLISH A CRITERIA AS USED IN SEEDING TOURNAMENTS. PEOPLE USE CRITERIA TO SEED NUMEROUS WRESTLERS FOR LARGE TOURNAMENTS LIKE THE WSAZ. IT IS DONE EVERY YEAR WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS. I DO NOT SEE HOW EVALUATING THREE WRESTLERS (3 FIFTH PLACE WINNERS) IS SOMETHING DIFFICULT. THE TOP WRESTLER OUT OF THE THREE 5TH PLACE WINNERS MORE THAN LIKELY STAND OUT OVER THE OTHER TWO.

When I checked the last time I could not find a state that lets another region fill in for a region that is short.

WEST VIRGINIA LEADS THE 50 STATES IN DECLINING POPULATION. ITS ALL OVER THE NEWS. OTHER STATES DO NOT HAVE THE PROBLEMS WV HAS. ALSO, WHY CAN'T WEST VIRGINIA TAKE THE LEAD FOR ONCE ON SOMETHING????? WHY CAN'T WV BECOME AN INNOVATOR IN SOLVING A PROBLEM?

This has been discussed several times over the years.

IN THE PAST 4-5 YEARS, THIS HAS NEVER BECOME A REALITY. THIS SEASON, IT WILL BECOME REALITY. RULES GET CHANGED TO BAN CERTAIN TECHNIQUES THAT WRESTLERS HAVE BEEN USING FOR DECADES. RULES CAN BE CHANGED TO CORRECT PROBLEMS CAUSED BY LACK OF PARTICIPATION, DECLINING POPULATION, ETC. AFTER THIS SEASON, IT WILL BE DISCUSSED EVEN MORE. WE WILL HAVE ACTUAL OCCURRENCES WHERE QUALITY WRESTLERS ARE SHUT OUT. DEFAULTS/BYES/ETC WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT.

THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW FEMALES TO WRESTLE.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW MUSTACHES.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ELIMINATE THE UNLIMITED WEIGHT CLASS AND INSTALL 285 IN ITS PLACE.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ADDRESS BLOOD.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW LONG SHAGGY HAIR UNDER A SKULL CAP.

ITS TIME TO CHANGE A RULE TO ALLOW WRESTLERS TO WRESTLE. I WOULD THINK WE WOULD WANT TO GET 16 WRESTLERS IN EACH WEIGHT CLASS IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT.

Bearhugger wrote:PLEASE SEE MY COMMENTS IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS:

The first rule you need to change is "each region shall only have 4 wrestlers per weight class."
THEN IT SHOULD BE CHANGED SINCE THERE ARE SOME REGIONS THAT HAVE WEIGHT CLASSES WITH ONLY 2 TO 3 WRESTLERS. RULES GET CHANGED EVERY SEASON. A FEW GET CHANGED AND NOBODY SEEMS TO KNOW ANY SPECIFIC REASONS WHY. WE KNOW WHY THIS RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.

Next big problem is to decide what 5th place wrestler you let come.
THIS IS NOT A BIG PROBLEM. THIS IS AN EASY FIX. 1. TAKE THE HIGHEST RANKED 5TH PLACE WINNER FROM THE OTHER THREE REGIONS. 2. TAKE THE 5TH PLACE WINNER WITH THE BEST RECORD. 3. ESTABLISH A CRITERIA AS USED IN SEEDING TOURNAMENTS. PEOPLE USE CRITERIA TO SEED NUMEROUS WRESTLERS FOR LARGE TOURNAMENTS LIKE THE WSAZ. IT IS DONE EVERY YEAR WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS. I DO NOT SEE HOW EVALUATING THREE WRESTLERS (3 FIFTH PLACE WINNERS) IS SOMETHING DIFFICULT. THE TOP WRESTLER OUT OF THE THREE 5TH PLACE WINNERS MORE THAN LIKELY STAND OUT OVER THE OTHER TWO.

When I checked the last time I could not find a state that lets another region fill in for a region that is short.

WEST VIRGINIA LEADS THE 50 STATES IN DECLINING POPULATION. ITS ALL OVER THE NEWS. OTHER STATES DO NOT HAVE THE PROBLEMS WV HAS. ALSO, WHY CAN'T WEST VIRGINIA TAKE THE LEAD FOR ONCE ON SOMETHING????? WHY CAN'T WV BECOME AN INNOVATOR IN SOLVING A PROBLEM?

This has been discussed several times over the years.

IN THE PAST 4-5 YEARS, THIS HAS NEVER BECOME A REALITY. THIS SEASON, IT WILL BECOME REALITY. RULES GET CHANGED TO BAN CERTAIN TECHNIQUES THAT WRESTLERS HAVE BEEN USING FOR DECADES. RULES CAN BE CHANGED TO CORRECT PROBLEMS CAUSED BY LACK OF PARTICIPATION, DECLINING POPULATION, ETC. AFTER THIS SEASON, IT WILL BE DISCUSSED EVEN MORE. WE WILL HAVE ACTUAL OCCURRENCES WHERE QUALITY WRESTLERS ARE SHUT OUT. DEFAULTS/BYES/ETC WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT.

THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW FEMALES TO WRESTLE.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW MUSTACHES.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ELIMINATE THE UNLIMITED WEIGHT CLASS AND INSTALL 285 IN ITS PLACE.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ADDRESS BLOOD.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW LONG SHAGGY HAIR UNDER A SKULL CAP.

ITS TIME TO CHANGE A RULE TO ALLOW WRESTLERS TO WRESTLE. I WOULD THINK WE WOULD WANT TO GET 16 WRESTLERS IN EACH WEIGHT CLASS IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT.

I should stay out of this, but...

Next big problem is to decide what 5th place wrestler you let come.
THIS IS NOT A BIG PROBLEM. THIS IS AN EASY FIX.

1. TAKE THE HIGHEST RANKED 5TH PLACE WINNER FROM THE OTHER THREE REGIONS.
Editor: Then, you have a big argument over the rankings. The only reason the published rankings don't draw more blood than they do now is that, at the end of the day, they don't count for much. They mean nothing for qualifying for the state tournament. Perhaps some coaches/tournament directors look at them when seeding a regular season tournament - I don't know.

2. TAKE THE 5TH PLACE WINNER WITH THE BEST RECORD.
Editor: Using the "best record" to seed a wrestler is notorious for being, at times, an inadequate criteria.

3. ESTABLISH A CRITERIA AS USED IN SEEDING TOURNAMENTS. PEOPLE USE CRITERIA TO SEED NUMEROUS WRESTLERS FOR LARGE TOURNAMENTS LIKE THE WSAZ. IT IS DONE EVERY YEAR WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS.
Editor: Establishing criteria is going to be arbitrary in some (many?) cases. Even the criteria for deciding the winner in a dual meet when the score is tied ends with "flip a disk."

In the rankings there are always cases of A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A. So, who is ranked higher? How about when wrestlers split matches? How about the case where a wrestler loses by injury default? Does that count as a loss for the purposes of rankings? What if it becomes known that the wrestler was losing on points when the injury occurred? Is winning by fall really more convincing a win than winning by tech fall? We all know of cases where the better wrestler got caught on his back, but, let's face it, if you have been teched you have been defeated.

In re IT IS DONE EVERY YEAR WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS -- Well, that is not a descriptive term that I would apply to the few seeding meetings I have sat in on, even small time tournaments (smile).

admin wrote:

Bearhugger wrote:PLEASE SEE MY COMMENTS IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS:

The first rule you need to change is "each region shall only have 4 wrestlers per weight class."
THEN IT SHOULD BE CHANGED SINCE THERE ARE SOME REGIONS THAT HAVE WEIGHT CLASSES WITH ONLY 2 TO 3 WRESTLERS. RULES GET CHANGED EVERY SEASON. A FEW GET CHANGED AND NOBODY SEEMS TO KNOW ANY SPECIFIC REASONS WHY. WE KNOW WHY THIS RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.

Next big problem is to decide what 5th place wrestler you let come.
THIS IS NOT A BIG PROBLEM. THIS IS AN EASY FIX. 1. TAKE THE HIGHEST RANKED 5TH PLACE WINNER FROM THE OTHER THREE REGIONS. 2. TAKE THE 5TH PLACE WINNER WITH THE BEST RECORD. 3. ESTABLISH A CRITERIA AS USED IN SEEDING TOURNAMENTS. PEOPLE USE CRITERIA TO SEED NUMEROUS WRESTLERS FOR LARGE TOURNAMENTS LIKE THE WSAZ. IT IS DONE EVERY YEAR WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS. I DO NOT SEE HOW EVALUATING THREE WRESTLERS (3 FIFTH PLACE WINNERS) IS SOMETHING DIFFICULT. THE TOP WRESTLER OUT OF THE THREE 5TH PLACE WINNERS MORE THAN LIKELY STAND OUT OVER THE OTHER TWO.

When I checked the last time I could not find a state that lets another region fill in for a region that is short.

WEST VIRGINIA LEADS THE 50 STATES IN DECLINING POPULATION. ITS ALL OVER THE NEWS. OTHER STATES DO NOT HAVE THE PROBLEMS WV HAS. ALSO, WHY CAN'T WEST VIRGINIA TAKE THE LEAD FOR ONCE ON SOMETHING????? WHY CAN'T WV BECOME AN INNOVATOR IN SOLVING A PROBLEM?

This has been discussed several times over the years.

IN THE PAST 4-5 YEARS, THIS HAS NEVER BECOME A REALITY. THIS SEASON, IT WILL BECOME REALITY. RULES GET CHANGED TO BAN CERTAIN TECHNIQUES THAT WRESTLERS HAVE BEEN USING FOR DECADES. RULES CAN BE CHANGED TO CORRECT PROBLEMS CAUSED BY LACK OF PARTICIPATION, DECLINING POPULATION, ETC. AFTER THIS SEASON, IT WILL BE DISCUSSED EVEN MORE. WE WILL HAVE ACTUAL OCCURRENCES WHERE QUALITY WRESTLERS ARE SHUT OUT. DEFAULTS/BYES/ETC WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT.

THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW FEMALES TO WRESTLE.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW MUSTACHES.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ELIMINATE THE UNLIMITED WEIGHT CLASS AND INSTALL 285 IN ITS PLACE.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ADDRESS BLOOD.
THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW LONG SHAGGY HAIR UNDER A SKULL CAP.

ITS TIME TO CHANGE A RULE TO ALLOW WRESTLERS TO WRESTLE. I WOULD THINK WE WOULD WANT TO GET 16 WRESTLERS IN EACH WEIGHT CLASS IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT.

I should stay out of this, but...

Next big problem is to decide what 5th place wrestler you let come.
THIS IS NOT A BIG PROBLEM. THIS IS AN EASY FIX.

1. TAKE THE HIGHEST RANKED 5TH PLACE WINNER FROM THE OTHER THREE REGIONS.
Editor: Then, you have a big argument over the rankings. The only reason the published rankings don't draw more blood than they do now is that, at the end of the day, they don't count for much. They mean nothing for qualifying for the state tournament. Perhaps some coaches/tournament directors look at them when seeding a regular season tournament - I don't know.

2. TAKE THE 5TH PLACE WINNER WITH THE BEST RECORD.
Editor: Using the "best record" to seed a wrestler is notorious for being, at times, an inadequate criteria.

3. ESTABLISH A CRITERIA AS USED IN SEEDING TOURNAMENTS. PEOPLE USE CRITERIA TO SEED NUMEROUS WRESTLERS FOR LARGE TOURNAMENTS LIKE THE WSAZ. IT IS DONE EVERY YEAR WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS.
Editor: Establishing criteria is going to be arbitrary in some (many?) cases. Even the criteria for deciding the winner in a dual meet when the score is tied ends with "flip a disk."

In the rankings there are always cases of A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A. So, who is ranked higher? How about when wrestlers split matches? How about the case where a wrestler loses by injury default? Does that count as a loss for the purposes of rankings? What if it becomes known that the wrestler was losing on points when the injury occurred? Is winning by fall really more convincing a win than winning by tech fall? We all know of cases where the better wrestler got caught on his back, but, let's face it, if you have been teched you have been defeated.

In re IT IS DONE EVERY YEAR WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS -- Well, that is not a descriptive term that I would apply to the few seeding meetings I have sat in on, even small time tournaments (smile).

We are talking three wrestlers, from three teams. Each team has at least 2 coaches. Some teams have 7 to 9 coaches. Maybe the coaches need to pay more attention to the polls? Maybe they need to keep good records on their kids. Maybe they already do all of this???? Once the regions are over, three coaches(3 different teams) have 24 hours to present their case. Their case against whatever criteria.

We would know what weight classes would have a "wild card" selection BEFORE the regional tournaments take place.

Today, we already know of a few weight classes where we NEED a "wild card" selection. These weight classes are where the coaches, the wrestlers, the wild card committee need to take focus.

I went back to last year's regions and looked at the 5th place winners in a specific weight class. The four 5th place winners' records were as follows:

15-18
17-17
22-18
32-17

How would anybody seed these four kids? The 32-17 wrestler has more matches, a better winning percentage and 10 more wins than the next best wrestler.

I also looked at the final two rankings before the regional tournaments. None of these wrestlers were ranked.

Once the first individual polls come out next week, we will have some specifics to further this discussion. Solving this problem is easier than hosting and conducting the state tournament. The state tournament is conducted and ran every year with minimal issues. If folks can do that every year, solving this situation should be nothing.

I think it could be solved and implemented for this season.

AAA has a needed Wild Card situation in 113 and 170. Both weight classes have a wrestler shortfall in region 3. Region four could have plenty of top 10 wrestlers in both of these weight classes. We got two months to solve this KNOWN problem.

Intercepted memo from Coach Bill Archer

a. The state tournament director runs the state tournament for the WVSSAC.

b. The process (for making modifications to the mechanics of the state tournament) is from the coaches meeting at the state tournament - to the coaches committee - to WVSSAC rules committee. Then we do what comes out.

c. I would guess if it is going to be as big of a problem as some of you think, it will be brought up at the state coaches meeting.

d. I told them that this big of a change was going to have problems. Despite what you may think, I can't run the state as I think it would seem best.

e. Most of the rules you mention are national rules. Our WVSSAC never changes national rules. You are allowed a little change on times and dates on state tournaments.

admin wrote:Intercepted memo from Coach Bill Archer

a. The state tournament director runs the state tournament for the WVSSAC.

b. The process (for making modifications to the mechanics of the state tournament) is from the coaches meeting at the state tournament - to the coaches committee - to WVSSAC rules committee. Then we do what comes out.

c. I would guess if it is going to be as big of a problem as some of you think, it will be brought up at the state coaches meeting.

d. I told them that this big of a change was going to have problems. Despite what you may think, I can't run the state as I think it would seem best.

e. Most of the rules you mention are national rules. Our WVSSAC never changes national rules. You are allowed a little change on times and dates on state tournaments.

I do believe if Coach Bill Archer was running the state, things would be better.

As for the current state of affairs with the regions and the potential byes at the state tournament, we can accept things as they are or raise the concern.

West Virginia is making national news as the state for having the fastest declining population. With our current and long running system, we can NOT get 16 wrestlers into the state tournament in all of the weight classes.

I agree with Bearhugger, if Coach Bill Archer could run the state tourney, it would be a much brighter picture. Everyone has found faults with the state tournament but I know that Coach Archer has done things right, and the things that haven't been right have been out of his control.
One solution is to drop back to one class, which was the system that I wrestled back in the stone ages. We never had a choice because we didn't know better. We had to battle with the PHS and South programs. Not sure this method today would help get more kids out in small programs like ours. But we would try, along with all the other teams that trying to keep a program afloat with small numbers.
I'm also in agreement that something has to change in our format that we have in place today to fill every weight class in the tournament to make sure that every weight class has its full amount of wrestlers. Going about this is a challenge. Coach Garry Bender offered one solution to this several years ago. No one was interested but made total sense. We live and die by the "pill". If a weight class is shy a wrestler, draw a pill to see which other region brings their 5th place wrestler into the mix. May not be the best wrestler in the state but it helps to void vacant spots. If seeding the state tournament is not going to be feasible, then why now attempt to fill the vacant spots.
Wrestling powers have changed in WV in the smaller schools. Back in the 80's the powers were St Marys, Cameron, Shady, Spencer, and Willamstown. Then came along Oak Glen with their run and Point dipping in and out between AAA and AA-A. Now the powers to be are Indy, and Indy. This will change, I'm sure. Every program I mentioned were solid programs that demanded excellence. Myself at Calhoun, we had great teams, not just great enough. One thing ran in common with most of these teams, not large numbers, just good wrestlers who wanted it all.
The future of wrestling in WV looks solid. So many kids gaining experience and putting forth the effort to get better. The LKC used to be dominant, you place in that tourney, you place in the states. No longer the case. Wrestling has expanded throughout the state. Just worried that coaches that have been doing the right things just can't these kids out for whatever reason. I know, been there, done that.
Speaking for the smaller schools with big problems.

Well said Coach Stump. You were always one of my favorite coaches to speak with and visit and I always admired your coaching and how well your teams were prepared. I can remember our conversations over your last few years, when you had several really good wrestlers and champions, but lacked the numbers in upper weights to win it. You sure got the most out of what you put on the mat though.

I agree that there are some really good wrestlers that have to take a back seat and wait their turns who could make noise at the state tournament, but I don't think I'll live long enough to see B teamers wrestle in the state tournament. If I do, I'll high five Bearhugger and say good job!

Keep on contributing Mike, you may have retired, but you're still upright my friend!

Found this on the Maine state tournament PDF,,, I realize our situation is a little different because we would be comparing 3 different 5th place finishers but it might be adjusted to fit our situation,,,,,,,,,

"In the case of each wrestler entering the same seed
and each having been defeated in the consolation semi-finals, their consolation semifinal
match would be scored as if it took place during a dual team match and the
wrestler who lost in the closer match would be the alternate. ( A wrestler losing by a 3-2
score would advance over a wrestler who lost 12-1)
If both wrestlers lost by the same differential, then the wrestler who lost to the eventual
consolation champion would be deemed the alternate for that class"

Bearhugger and his generation are spoiled by "everyone gets a participation medal". If forfeits become a problem at state then the WVSSAC isn't going to come up with a comprehensive formula to decide who is the first alternative. Their solution will be much simpler, downsize with only the top two from each region qualifies and the state tournament is an eight man bracket instead of 16 man bracket. Problem solved. Going to states by going 0-2 at regions isn't really earning a spot, is it? It's a participation award. I don't see occasional forfeits at the state tourney as a problem. Only when it is the norm instead of the exception, then it's time to downsize. I really don't care to water down the tournament by including 5th place finishers. The state tournament should for wrestlers who actually won a match at regions, it should be for the best wrestlers.

eaglematmonkey wrote:Bearhugger and his generation are spoiled by "everyone gets a participation medal". If forfeits become a problem at state then the WVSSAC isn't going to come up with a comprehensive formula to decide who is the first alternative. Their solution will be much simpler, downsize with only the top two from each region qualifies and the state tournament is an eight man bracket instead of 16 man bracket. Problem solved. Going to states by going 0-2 at regions isn't really earning a spot, is it? It's a participation award. I don't see occasional forfeits at the state tourney as a problem. Only when it is the norm instead of the exception, then it's time to downsize. I really don't care to water down the tournament by including 5th place finishers. The state tournament should for wrestlers who actually won a match at regions, it should be for the best wrestlers.

I am 51 years old. I am part of a generation where the teachers and coaches had more law and order than they do now. I had parents that kept me out of trouble. I had a dad that would beat my A__. When the police came around, you did what they said.

When I wrestled, they only took the top THREE in the region. 4th place stayed home. That rule lasted only two seasons.

My age hasn't ruined my eyesight yet. I SEE what is before me. Based on your comments, you have NOT read all of the situations that are happening now.



1. You do not know what the WVSSAC is going to do.
2. Some regions are so weak, too many kids will show up and be given a free rife to the state tournament.
3. The subject of a 5th place wrestler going to the state is to prevent byes.
4. Less than 16 wrestlers in the state tournament is "watering down" the state tournament.
5. There are over 10 to 15 weight classes that have 4 or less wrestlers within given regions. There will be many 0-2 (in the region) wrestlers going to the state tournament.
6. If the situation doesn't change, we will all be talking on the forum section for the show choir or the tennis teams.

I am not saying that this is a fact but like bearhuggers ideals there is something to think about maybe if we moved the state tournament from Huntignton to someplace closer to the eastern panhandle once in a while the participation would increase over here and there would not be so many byes comeing out of our region. parents and kids get tired of driving all the way over to Huntington every year.

Bearhugger wrote:

eaglematmonkey wrote:Bearhugger and his generation are spoiled by "everyone gets a participation medal". If forfeits become a problem at state then the WVSSAC isn't going to come up with a comprehensive formula to decide who is the first alternative. Their solution will be much simpler, downsize with only the top two from each region qualifies and the state tournament is an eight man bracket instead of 16 man bracket. Problem solved. Going to states by going 0-2 at regions isn't really earning a spot, is it? It's a participation award. I don't see occasional forfeits at the state tourney as a problem. Only when it is the norm instead of the exception, then it's time to downsize. I really don't care to water down the tournament by including 5th place finishers. The state tournament should for wrestlers who actually won a match at regions, it should be for the best wrestlers.

I am 51 years old. I am part of a generation where the teachers and coaches had more law and order than they do now. I had parents that kept me out of trouble. I had a dad that would beat my A__. When the police came around, you did what they said.

When I wrestled, they only took the top THREE in the region. 4th place stayed home. That rule lasted only two seasons.

My age hasn't ruined my eyesight yet. I SEE what is before me. Based on your comments, you have NOT read all of the situations that are happening now.



1. You do not know what the WVSSAC is going to do.
2. Some regions are so weak, too many kids will show up and be given a free rife to the state tournament.
3. The subject of a 5th place wrestler going to the state is to prevent byes.
4. Less than 16 wrestlers in the state tournament is "watering down" the state tournament.
5. There are over 10 to 15 weight classes that have 4 or less wrestlers within given regions. There will be many 0-2 (in the region) wrestlers going to the state tournament.
6. If the situation doesn't change, we will all be talking on the forum section for the show choir or the tennis teams.

The state tournament should be for the state's best wrestlers, not a participation award for attending a regional. If you don't want forfeits at the state tournament then downsize it.

In response to your statements:
1. You do not know what the WVSSAC is going to do.
No I don't know, but I do know they are not going to add more work to their workload.

2. Some regions are so weak, too many kids will show up and be given a free rife to the state tournament.
That is my point, participation award to something that should be earn (by maybe winning a match).

3. The subject of a 5th place wrestler going to the state is to prevent byes.
Wrong, there are no BYES at the state.

4. Less than 16 wrestlers in the state tournament is "watering down" the state tournament.
Wrong, Less is better, better quality for the state's best event is showcase. No one wants a an off key singer at the sate choir concert.

5. There are over 10 to 15 weight classes that have 4 or less wrestlers within given regions. There will be many 0-2 (in the region) wrestlers going to the state tournament.
Correct, therefore watering down the state tournament. A good reason to downsize.

6. If the situation doesn't change, we will all be talking on the forum section for the show choir or the tennis teams
Wrong, you (not we) will be talking, YOU never learned to shut up. Always running your mouth.

If you're 51 years old and come from a generation that was taught respect, when did you lose it? Respect the system as it is and quit running your mouth. Your repetitive rhetoric is old.

I say we just have 1 from each region and do the state round robin style that way there is no fussin about seeding or the pill. Now you need to win 4 matches in a row to be a state champ but 1 of those might be a buy. Whith my plan there wouldn't be no buys. Win three and you are the champ. pins and tecks and majors would help for tie breakers. My ideal would favor the teams who can have a region champ and not the ones who squeak buy in regions and place low at state. You would see powerful team scores from the eastern panhandle so I doubt that the boys in parkersburgh or Huntington or wheeling will go for it.

Move the tournament to Hedgesville once in a while to

RegalBeagleBluto wrote:I say we just have 1 from each region and do the state round robin style that way there is no fussin about seeding or the pill. Now you need to win 4 matches in a row to be a state champ but 1 of those might be a buy. Whith my plan there wouldn't be no buys. Win three and you are the champ. pins and tecks and majors would help for tie breakers. My ideal would favor the teams who can have a region champ and not the ones who squeak buy in regions and place low at state. You would see powerful team scores from the eastern panhandle so I doubt that the boys in parkersburgh or Huntington or wheeling will go for it.

Move the tournament to Hedgesville once in a while to

I'll bite....where would you hold the state tournament in Hedgesville?

guard0544 wrote:

Bearhugger wrote:

guard0544 wrote:
I will borrow the logic of those who strongly support a forfeit in a dual setting counting as a win on the individual wrestlers season record because the wrestler showed up and made weight. If the wrestler at the state tournament faces no one in the opening round he still earned the "win" and therefore the points because he showed up and made weight. Nothing to worry about here!

Your logic is sound. I would not allow this great sport to deteriorate to hosting a state tournament with byes.

I'm with you on believing there should be mechanisms in place to allow quality 5th place wrestlers from another region to fill in any empty slots left from another region not having 4 qualifiers. It would not be very difficult to do. Simply look at those who placed 5th in the other regional tournaments at the given weight class and...on some solid pre-established criteria, one of them would be selected to fill the slot.

The only problem is finding a "quality" 5th place from another region. Personally, I think the top four from each region is BS. There are many instances where specific regions are loaded in a particular weight class. And what about when a team has a JV wrestler that could possibly make a run at a state title? Just my 2 cents.....

b. The process (for making modifications to the mechanics of the state tournament) is from the coaches meeting at the state tournament - to the coaches committee - to WVSSAC rules committee. Then we do what comes out.

I have been in these meetings before and heard some great proposals. I cannot accurately say what happened after the meeting, but I can guess.
Did the coaches forget or did the wvssac simply disagree? I don't know.

One thing I can say is true the wvssac will be at the state tournament. They will be there smiling, eating for free, and staying in a free hotel room. Thankfully the nfhs has not changed the weight classes so the ssac will present correct awards this time.
I know wrestling people very well and how we are passionate. It should be the agenda for every fan and parent to inquire about our current situation. Don't let the wvssac get a free pass. Make them earn their 100+ salary. Ask them how they make their decisions regarding a-aa-aaa, regional alignment etc. Let them know they should listen to the coaches of wv instead of looking to fine them.
There I said it and I feel better.

eaglematmonkey wrote:

Bearhugger wrote:

eaglematmonkey wrote:Bearhugger and his generation are spoiled by "everyone gets a participation medal". If forfeits become a problem at state then the WVSSAC isn't going to come up with a comprehensive formula to decide who is the first alternative. Their solution will be much simpler, downsize with only the top two from each region qualifies and the state tournament is an eight man bracket instead of 16 man bracket. Problem solved. Going to states by going 0-2 at regions isn't really earning a spot, is it? It's a participation award. I don't see occasional forfeits at the state tourney as a problem. Only when it is the norm instead of the exception, then it's time to downsize. I really don't care to water down the tournament by including 5th place finishers. The state tournament should for wrestlers who actually won a match at regions, it should be for the best wrestlers.

I am 51 years old. I am part of a generation where the teachers and coaches had more law and order than they do now. I had parents that kept me out of trouble. I had a dad that would beat my A__. When the police came around, you did what they said.

When I wrestled, they only took the top THREE in the region. 4th place stayed home. That rule lasted only two seasons.

My age hasn't ruined my eyesight yet. I SEE what is before me. Based on your comments, you have NOT read all of the situations that are happening now.



1. You do not know what the WVSSAC is going to do.
2. Some regions are so weak, too many kids will show up and be given a free rife to the state tournament.
3. The subject of a 5th place wrestler going to the state is to prevent byes.
4. Less than 16 wrestlers in the state tournament is "watering down" the state tournament.
5. There are over 10 to 15 weight classes that have 4 or less wrestlers within given regions. There will be many 0-2 (in the region) wrestlers going to the state tournament.
6. If the situation doesn't change, we will all be talking on the forum section for the show choir or the tennis teams.

The state tournament should be for the state's best wrestlers, not a participation award for attending a regional. If you don't want forfeits at the state tournament then downsize it.

In response to your statements:
1. You do not know what the WVSSAC is going to do.
No I don't know, but I do know they are not going to add more work to their workload.

2. Some regions are so weak, too many kids will show up and be given a free rife to the state tournament.
That is my point, participation award to something that should be earn (by maybe winning a match).

3. The subject of a 5th place wrestler going to the state is to prevent byes.
Wrong, there are no BYES at the state.

4. Less than 16 wrestlers in the state tournament is "watering down" the state tournament.
Wrong, Less is better, better quality for the state's best event is showcase. No one wants a an off key singer at the sate choir concert.

5. There are over 10 to 15 weight classes that have 4 or less wrestlers within given regions. There will be many 0-2 (in the region) wrestlers going to the state tournament.
Correct, therefore watering down the state tournament. A good reason to downsize.

6. If the situation doesn't change, we will all be talking on the forum section for the show choir or the tennis teams
Wrong, you (not we) will be talking, YOU never learned to shut up. Always running your mouth.

If you're 51 years old and come from a generation that was taught respect, when did you lose it? Respect the system as it is and quit running your mouth. Your repetitive rhetoric is old.

The current system and your comments do not command any respect from me.