Seeking Information

[Bearhugger]

Answers to the following are appreciated.

1. How many participants can a given school enter into a given track event? For example, how many athletes can XYZ High School enter into the 100 meter dash in a track meet? One? Two? Three?

2. True or false. In WV, the WSAZ is considered the elite in state event for middle school?

3. At the WSAZ middle school tournament, more than one wrestler from the same school can compete in the same weight class. True or false?

4. Is wrestling participation higher in middle school than in high school? Exclude high schools that benefit from multiple middle school feeder programs.

[coach_williams]

Answers to the following are appreciated.

1. How many participants can a given school enter into a given track event? For example, how many athletes can XYZ High School enter into the 100 meter dash in a track meet? One? Two? Three?

2. True or false. In WV, the WSAZ is considered the elite in state event for middle school?

3. At the WSAZ middle school tournament, more than one wrestler from the same school can compete in the same weight class. True or false?

4. Is wrestling participation higher in middle school than in high school? Exclude high schools that benefit from multiple middle school feeder programs.

1. My daughter was on the track team and I think that the answer depends on the event.

2. True, but that is the unofficial opinion of some coaches. Until the WVYWA came along everyone considered Jr States to be the elite middle school tournament.

3. True, but I believe it is classified as an open tournament. Also, unless it has changed in the last two years, you have to pay extra to enter JV wrestlers.

4. I would say yes, but there are multiple factors. In my experience, many middle schoolers "burn out" or just lose interest. From what I have seen, participation is higher in football in the middle school than in the high school too.

[coach_stump]

Bearhugger, I can't answer your first question you asked but to answer your other questions, yes, you are correct. But studies prove from all the youth wrestlers involved, numbers drop as they continue to the next level, which is high school if you are following me. Then college which the percentage really takes a tremendous drop. You are wearing me and others out with your thoughts, ideas, and concerns. Some are solid, some are dreams, some has value, some don't apply. Coaches, when you meet on Friday morning at the state wrestling, I say you vote on appointing said Bearhugger to oversee the state of WV to improve our state in the sport of wrestling. I would like to say 'make WV wrestling great again' but that comment is being overused. Fault me for being old school but like you Bearhugger, I have my opinion, you have yours. I respect yours but don't always agree. And coaches, was only kidding on the selection, I know the battles we face. Looking forward to your reply Bear, gives the forum good reading.

[Matman31]

When I ran track in 2015 it was 2 per event for the state tourney

[mscoach4]

I suspect you already know the answers to your questions and want to make your point.
1 each school in track can enter 3 for each individual event.
2 because "the middle school concept" is used by the WV department of Education there no statewide championships for middle schools. Events have become recognized as the unofficial state championships. In cross country its the Doddridge County Invitationl, in track its the Harry Green Invitational and of course its WSAZ in wrestling.
3 true
4 I would guess that most middle school coaches in any sport would rather have statewide championships rather than have certain events become the unofficial championships.
That is something that will never happen though as long as the state Dept. of Ed employs the middle school concept. Right now in WV the state BOE kinda turns a blind eye to do what we do in middle school sports in WV. The true middle school concept says that there should be no competitive sports and intramurals should be emphasized instead.
,,,,,,,,,
On another thing to consider though is that the number of athletes participating in championships in other sports in WV is even more limited than it is in wrestling. In cross country for example some schools in WV have extremely large teams of 50 or more but when the state meet for cross country comes around that school is only allowed to use 7 out of those 50 team members at the state meet. In football only 11 are allowed on the field, basketball only 5 play and cuts are made before the season starts. What about all of those kids who got cut? I'm sure there are players who are cut that are better than players on other teams that don't get cut. Those players know they have to work harder in hopes that they make the team next year.
,,,
I'm not advocating one way or the other for B wrestlers but just saying the participation for good athletes in other sports might actually be worse than it is in wrestling.

[vortexfan]

Good Points bearhugger

[neverwas22]

1. Wrestling is not Track. Wrestling is not Baseball. Wrestling is not Football. Wrestling should not be treated the same as other sports. It is a ridiculous argument to make.

2. True. Since middle school can not have a "state tournament" it is considered by coaches as the default state tournament for middle school.

3. JV wrestlers can attend....with an added fee per JV wrestler/team. Tournaments such as the Wood County Championships, or the Kanawha county tournament, are varsity wrestlers only.

4. Not sure. Across most sports, middle school participation is higher than high school. Kids become burnt out or uncommitted to the sport. I would lean towards the trend and say higher in middle school.

[NhsMom]

1. Wrestling is not Track. Wrestling is not Baseball. Wrestling is not Football. Wrestling should not be treated the same as other sports. It is a ridiculous argument to make.

2. True. Since middle school can not have a "state tournament" it is considered by coaches as the default state tournament for middle school.

3. JV wrestlers can attend....with an added fee per JV wrestler/team. Tournaments such as the Wood County Championships, or the Kanawha county tournament, are varsity wrestlers only.

4. Not sure. Across most sports, middle school participation is higher than high school. Kids become burnt out or uncommitted to the sport. I would lean towards the trend and say higher in middle school.

Kanawha County Championship allows JV. There were several who competed this year

[TheBoxer]

1. Wrestling is not Track. Wrestling is not Baseball. Wrestling is not Football. Wrestling should not be treated the same as other sports. It is a ridiculous argument to make.

2. True. Since middle school can not have a "state tournament" it is considered by coaches as the default state tournament for middle school.

3. JV wrestlers can attend....with an added fee per JV wrestler/team. Tournaments such as the Wood County Championships, or the Kanawha county tournament, are varsity wrestlers only.

4. Not sure. Across most sports, middle school participation is higher than high school. Kids become burnt out or uncommitted to the sport. I would lean towards the trend and say higher in middle school.

It isn't fair to call WSAZ a state championship. there can be and has been teams from other states there. Not every middle school is allowed to attend.

It is a great tournament extremely tough tournament and winning it or in many cases placing in it is something to be proud of but it is not a state tournament.

this whole track argument has been covered time and time again. up to 3 varsity athletes may participate in an event. one varsity team in a 4x event. XC can have 7 varsity athletes in an event.

personally I think we should stop with this craziness. if we keep going we will end up shooting ourselves in the foot and we will no longer be able to enter JV athletes in any varsity events. That is how WVSSAC governs other sports. if that is what you want keep complaining.

to say this conversation is warn out is an understatement!

[dontlikethelights]

Kanawha County has not allowed JV wrestlers in the county championship for a few years now. It comes up every year in the coaches meeting.

[Bearhugger]

Answers to the following are appreciated.

1. How many participants can a given school enter into a given track event? For example, how many athletes can XYZ High School enter into the 100 meter dash in a track meet? One? Two? Three?

2. True or false. In WV, the WSAZ is considered the elite in state event for middle school?

3. At the WSAZ middle school tournament, more than one wrestler from the same school can compete in the same weight class. True or false?

4. Is wrestling participation higher in middle school than in high school? Exclude high schools that benefit from multiple middle school feeder programs.

1. My daughter was on the track team and I think that the answer depends on the event.

2. True, but that is the unofficial opinion of some coaches. Until the WVYWA came along everyone considered Jr States to be the elite middle school tournament.

3. True, but I believe it is classified as an open tournament. Also, unless it has changed in the last two years, you have to pay extra to enter JV wrestlers.

4. I would say yes, but there are multiple factors. In my experience, many middle schoolers "burn out" or just lose interest. From what I have seen, participation is higher in football in the middle school than in the high school too.

Just what is "burning out" these 13 and 14 year old kids? Their parents allowing them to burn out??? If a person "burns out" at age 13 these days, it is no wonder I know all these adults that have 23 year old kids still at home, sitting on the couch, no job, not attending college, no military plans, no plan at all.

[Bearhugger]

Bearhugger, I can't answer your first question you asked but to answer your other questions, yes, you are correct. But studies prove from all the youth wrestlers involved, numbers drop as they continue to the next level, which is high school if you are following me. Then college which the percentage really takes a tremendous drop. You are wearing me and others out with your thoughts, ideas, and concerns. Some are solid, some are dreams, some has value, some don't apply. Coaches, when you meet on Friday morning at the state wrestling, I say you vote on appointing said Bearhugger to oversee the state of WV to improve our state in the sport of wrestling. I would like to say 'make WV wrestling great again' but that comment is being overused. Fault me for being old school but like you Bearhugger, I have my opinion, you have yours. I respect yours but don't always agree. And coaches, was only kidding on the selection, I know the battles we face. Looking forward to your reply Bear, gives the forum good reading.

I read on Facebook at the beginning of the season that Calhoun Middle either had 0 or only 1 wrestler sign up. It was posted by the coach. I hated to hear that. Some of the "old school" ways might be hurting wrestling because this new breed only puts in the work if they can participate. Anybody that is getting worn out, then take a break from WVMAT. When I take a break, the forum almost shuts down.

I took your response as humorous and "in good fun". I hope you can do the same.

[Bearhugger]

I suspect you already know the answers to your questions and want to make your point.
1 each school in track can enter 3 for each individual event.
2 because "the middle school concept" is used by the WV department of Education there no statewide championships for middle schools. Events have become recognized as the unofficial state championships. In cross country its the Doddridge County Invitationl, in track its the Harry Green Invitational and of course its WSAZ in wrestling.
3 true
4 I would guess that most middle school coaches in any sport would rather have statewide championships rather than have certain events become the unofficial championships.
That is something that will never happen though as long as the state Dept. of Ed employs the middle school concept. Right now in WV the state BOE kinda turns a blind eye to do what we do in middle school sports in WV. The true middle school concept says that there should be no competitive sports and intramurals should be emphasized instead.
,,,,,,,,,
On another thing to consider though is that the number of athletes participating in championships in other sports in WV is even more limited than it is in wrestling. In cross country for example some schools in WV have extremely large teams of 50 or more but when the state meet for cross country comes around that school is only allowed to use 7 out of those 50 team members at the state meet. In football only 11 are allowed on the field, basketball only 5 play and cuts are made before the season starts. What about all of those kids who got cut? I'm sure there are players who are cut that are better than players on other teams that don't get cut. Those players know they have to work harder in hopes that they make the team next year.
,,,
I'm not advocating one way or the other for B wrestlers but just saying the participation for good athletes in other sports might actually be worse than it is in wrestling.

Thank you for your response. I honestly didn't know how many participants can enter a track event.

As for the other sports you mentioned:

1. Cross country: 7 per school is a lot. How many schools actually have 50 runners? What is the average number of runners per school throughout the state? I figure "50" is the exception.

2. Football: 11 players on the FIELD at a time. However, some teams alternate players every play. Then there are special teams, offense/defense only players, etc. Football is a bad example.

3. Basketball: You have the starting 5 and then there are usually 2 to 4 that get into the varsity game and play a lot.

In cross country, football, basketball, volleyball, baseball, etc, etc, there are NO BYES in the state tournament because the region failed to produce "football or basketball" team. Regarding the single players cut from the team sports, how can one measure and argue that they are better than a varsity player from another team? There is not any football combine in place to determine the "cut player" from Greenbrier East would start for Parkersburg South".

In wrestling, we have actual matches all season long. Please see the "LCQ Examples" posted. If you want the toughest state tournament in wrestling, then you need to allow the toughest kids the opportunity to qualify.

WV does have the toughest football teams in the state tournament. WV has the toughest basketball teams in the state qualification process.

WV does NOT have the toughest wrestlers in the state tournament. Approximately, the top 70% of a given weight class is the toughest. The bottom 30% is not. Might be 60/40.

[Bearhugger]

1. Wrestling is not Track. Wrestling is not Baseball. Wrestling is not Football. Wrestling should not be treated the same as other sports. It is a ridiculous argument to make.

2. True. Since middle school can not have a "state tournament" it is considered by coaches as the default state tournament for middle school.

3. JV wrestlers can attend....with an added fee per JV wrestler/team. Tournaments such as the Wood County Championships, or the Kanawha county tournament, are varsity wrestlers only.

4. Not sure. Across most sports, middle school participation is higher than high school. Kids become burnt out or uncommitted to the sport. I would lean towards the trend and say higher in middle school.

Kanawha County Championship allows JV. There were several who competed this year

If you are talking about the high school version of the KVC, they better let in the JV, middle school and recruit some wrestlers from six other counties. This tournament is drying up.

[Bearhugger]

1. Wrestling is not Track. Wrestling is not Baseball. Wrestling is not Football. Wrestling should not be treated the same as other sports. It is a ridiculous argument to make.

2. True. Since middle school can not have a "state tournament" it is considered by coaches as the default state tournament for middle school.

3. JV wrestlers can attend....with an added fee per JV wrestler/team. Tournaments such as the Wood County Championships, or the Kanawha county tournament, are varsity wrestlers only.

4. Not sure. Across most sports, middle school participation is higher than high school. Kids become burnt out or uncommitted to the sport. I would lean towards the trend and say higher in middle school.

It isn't fair to call WSAZ a state championship. there can be and has been teams from other states there. Not every middle school is allowed to attend.

It is a great tournament extremely tough tournament and winning it or in many cases placing in it is something to be proud of but it is not a state tournament.

this whole track argument has been covered time and time again. up to 3 varsity athletes may participate in an event. one varsity team in a 4x event. XC can have 7 varsity athletes in an event.

personally I think we should stop with this craziness. if we keep going we will end up shooting ourselves in the foot and we will no longer be able to enter JV athletes in any varsity events. That is how WVSSAC governs other sports. if that is what you want keep complaining.

to say this conversation is warn out is an understatement!

If the JV were banned from the high school WSAZ tournament, then look at how many podiums would have a complete overhaul.

If this is considered craziness and the decision is made to cease allowing JV in wrestling events, it will set wrestling back further. That kind of mentality goes hand in hand with a lot of the other decisions that are made in WV. People are saying teachers are 50th in pay. I will stop at that.

[dontlikethelights]

I don't think you necessarily get the best 8 basketball teams or the best 16 football teams in the state tournament. Basketball, like wrestling relies on regionals (and sectionals) which aren't necessarily even. Football uses their point system which is relatively fair, however you can be punished for playing an opponent not in your class. For example, St. Albans and South Charleston had the same record with SA having won head-to-head, but they played their rival Nitro who is now AA. Therefore SC made it in while SA stayed at home. Also it will help a team with a weaker schedule get a higher seed. Cabell Midland and Capital had to play the brutal MSAC schedule last year and ended up the 6 and 12 seeds and both went on to "upset" teams with better records not in the MSAC. I think no matter how you draw up the regions or qualify individuals you're always going to have someone complain. Now don't take that as I agree with exactly how things are done now. Personally I think a college style system where you take X from the regions then have a tournament or tournaments to fill out the rest of the bracket would help get the best. Say maybe 2 from each region, then 8 at large. That's just my crazy idea, the way the WVSSAC works we're stuck with these regions until 2019-2020 though so it's a moot point.

[mike.carman]

Answers to the following are appreciated.

1. How many participants can a given school enter into a given track event? For example, how many athletes can XYZ High School enter into the 100 meter dash in a track meet? One? Two? Three?

2. True or false. In WV, the WSAZ is considered the elite in state event for middle school?

3. At the WSAZ middle school tournament, more than one wrestler from the same school can compete in the same weight class. True or false?

4. Is wrestling participation higher in middle school than in high school? Exclude high schools that benefit from multiple middle school feeder programs.

1. Not sure
2. false, it really depends on what part of the state you live in as not all middle schools attend.
3. Don't know, we are in an area that can't attend.
4. Not in our area.

[Bearhugger]

I don't think you necessarily get the best 8 basketball teams or the best 16 football teams in the state tournament. Basketball, like wrestling relies on regionals (and sectionals) which aren't necessarily even. Football uses their point system which is relatively fair, however you can be punished for playing an opponent not in your class. For example, St. Albans and South Charleston had the same record with SA having won head-to-head, but they played their rival Nitro who is now AA. Therefore SC made it in while SA stayed at home. Also it will help a team with a weaker schedule get a higher seed. Cabell Midland and Capital had to play the brutal MSAC schedule last year and ended up the 6 and 12 seeds and both went on to "upset" teams with better records not in the MSAC. I think no matter how you draw up the regions or qualify individuals you're always going to have someone complain. Now don't take that as I agree with exactly how things are done now. Personally I think a college style system where you take X from the regions then have a tournament or tournaments to fill out the rest of the bracket would help get the best. Say maybe 2 from each region, then 8 at large. That's just my crazy idea, the way the WVSSAC works we're stuck with these regions until 2019-2020 though so it's a moot point.

If two football teams have the same record, I would think the winner of the head to head should get the nod. In wrestling at the WSAZ, head to head is the number one criteria.

Your idea is not crazy. What we have is crazy.

[KDunbar]

I suspect you already know the answers to your questions and want to make your point.
1 each school in track can enter 3 for each individual event.
2 because "the middle school concept" is used by the WV department of Education there no statewide championships for middle schools. Events have become recognized as the unofficial state championships. In cross country its the Doddridge County Invitationl, in track its the Harry Green Invitational and of course its WSAZ in wrestling.
3 true
4 I would guess that most middle school coaches in any sport would rather have statewide championships rather than have certain events become the unofficial championships.
That is something that will never happen though as long as the state Dept. of Ed employs the middle school concept. Right now in WV the state BOE kinda turns a blind eye to do what we do in middle school sports in WV. The true middle school concept says that there should be no competitive sports and intramurals should be emphasized instead.
,,,,,,,,,
On another thing to consider though is that the number of athletes participating in championships in other sports in WV is even more limited than it is in wrestling. In cross country for example some schools in WV have extremely large teams of 50 or more but when the state meet for cross country comes around that school is only allowed to use 7 out of those 50 team members at the state meet. In football only 11 are allowed on the field, basketball only 5 play and cuts are made before the season starts. What about all of those kids who got cut? I'm sure there are players who are cut that are better than players on other teams that don't get cut. Those players know they have to work harder in hopes that they make the team next year.
,,,
I'm not advocating one way or the other for B wrestlers but just saying the participation for good athletes in other sports might actually be worse than it is in wrestling.

Thank you for your response. I honestly didn't know how many participants can enter a track event.

As for the other sports you mentioned:

1. Cross country: 7 per school is a lot. How many schools actually have 50 runners? What is the average number of runners per school throughout the state? I figure "50" is the exception.

2. Football: 11 players on the FIELD at a time. However, some teams alternate players every play. Then there are special teams, offense/defense only players, etc. Football is a bad example.

3. Basketball: You have the starting 5 and then there are usually 2 to 4 that get into the varsity game and play a lot.

In cross country, football, basketball, volleyball, baseball, etc, etc, there are NO BYES in the state tournament because the region failed to produce "football or basketball" team. Regarding the single players cut from the team sports, how can one measure and argue that they are better than a varsity player from another team? There is not any football combine in place to determine the "cut player" from Greenbrier East would start for Parkersburg South".

In wrestling, we have actual matches all season long. Please see the "LCQ Examples" posted. If you want the toughest state tournament in wrestling, then you need to allow the toughest kids the opportunity to qualify.

WV does have the toughest football teams in the state tournament. WV has the toughest basketball teams in the state qualification process.

WV does NOT have the toughest wrestlers in the state tournament. Approximately, the top 70% of a given weight class is the toughest. The bottom 30% is not. Might be 60/40.

Some of us would think you answered your own question, then pulled a fast one.
You said "WV does have the toughest football teams in the state tournament. WV has the toughest basketball teams in the state qualification process." Therefore, I think you would have to agree that "WV has the toughest "teams" in the state wrestling tournament". You just changed the term with wrestling from TEAM to WRESTLERS. I can assure you that not all the toughest football players or basketball players (although I would kid my basketball buddies by asking just what is a tough basketball player is) are in the state tournaments for their respective team sports. With this said, you realize I realize that this a futile argument as one can use other sports to support ideas they want and at the same time state that we should forget what other sports do and be progressive. I'm sorry, but in discussing these things it can't be avoided to focus on what the other person is saying to support their point of view.

[NhsMom]

Kanawha County has not allowed JV wrestlers in the county championship for a few years now. It comes up every year in the coaches meeting.

I believe you need to go look at this years brackets. There were not many simply because numbers are down overall, but some weight classes had both a varsity and JV from the same school. For example, GW had two at 170

[dontlikethelights]

Kanawha County has not allowed JV wrestlers in the county championship for a few years now. It comes up every year in the coaches meeting.

I believe you need to go look at this years brackets. There were not many simply because numbers are down overall, but some weight classes had both a varsity and JV from the same school. For example, GW had two at 170

I was talking about the middle school tournament, as I thought that's what neverwas22 was referencing in his 3rd bullet point. I honestly forgot they have the high school one.