Call the Call

[Bearhugger]

Throughout the entire season, I have witnessed the following scenario quite a few times:

Wrestler A is on top and Wrestler B is on bottom. Wrestler A throws in two legs aka double boots aka double grapevine. Wrestler A also rolls both of Wrestler B's wrists up underneath him.

At this point, Wrestler B is flattened out, fighting double "boots" and has his wrists rolled up underneath him. He is basically helpless. He could also be overpowered.

To make it more interesting, Wrestler B is behind on points.

In addition, Wrestler A is not attempting to turn Wrestler B. Wrestler A is merely fighting to hold onto the position he has.

The common call made is to warn Wrestler B for stalling. In actuality, Wrestler B really cannot do much and Wrestler A should be attempting to turn B.

Is warning B for stalling the best call?

Shouldn't A attempt to turn B?

On the other hand, how long should this position continue before a stalemate is called?

[oroyos]

As long as wrestler B is trying to base up there shouldn’t be a stall. As long as wrestler A continues to actively try to turn wrEstler B there shouldn’t be a stalemate. What gets me is the potential danger call when the power half is in from the same position. Wrestler B has the choice either to turn or let the shoulder go. He will turn.

[Bearhugger]

As long as wrestler B is trying to base up there shouldn’t be a stall. As long as wrestler A continues to actively try to turn wrEstler B there shouldn’t be a stalemate. What gets me is the potential danger call when the power half is in from the same position. Wrestler B has the choice either to turn or let the shoulder go. He will turn.

As I mentioned, Wrestler A is not attempting to turn Wrestler B.

[oroyos]

As long as wrestler B is trying to base up there shouldn’t be a stall. As long as wrestler A continues to actively try to turn wrEstler B there shouldn’t be a stalemate. What gets me is the potential danger call when the power half is in from the same position. Wrestler B has the choice either to turn or let the shoulder go. He will turn.

As I mentioned, Wrestler A is not attempting to turn Wrestler B.

Then I agree. Hit wrEstler A with the stall.

[KDunbar]

The other unfortunate thing is that it is either stalling or not whatever the case, regardless of the score. The judgement should be whether it is stalling, not the motivation behind it. I think it is more incorrect when the referee tries to base his judgement on whether he thinks the wrestler wants to stall. Just my opinion.

[technical violation]

There's a few things to look at here, I will give the top man some time to execute whatever move he is working for, but he has to show me he's advancing towards something. Now if both legs and or feet\knees of the bottom man are elevated due to the double legs , I peronally will call stalemate , it'd very hard for the bottom man to advance up when your legs are up of the mat in that scenario. In 2 rules clinics I went to , we went over this a good bit, and it's to give the stalemate and then if it proceeds again , then it's the referees judgement on stalling , every scenario is diffrent , personally I would warn both wrestlers after the stalemate to work out and through that position, but in the scenario Bearhugger gave i think I would be looking at a stall call very seriously the second go round .
Now for the comment about the potentially dangerous, and he will go, it is a pd situation. If the top wrestler is providing pressure down on a hip/leg on the same side he is turning only half of the bottom man can turn , and I've had it done to me and I can assure you it hurt like hell. But there is way to much pressure on the back in that case, I'm always watching to see if they release the leg wich they genrally do

[aacoach70]

In my opinion, the bottom man should almost never be called for stalling in the situation you describe. Sticking in both boots and pressuring hips to the mat is a good start, but if the top man stops improving his position and does not make attempts to turn, then he needs to get a boot out and try something else. From the overpowering position described, the bottom man should not be expected to give his opponent a handle. I think a good leg rider can stall like crazy by only controlling the bottom man, even when he seems unable to turn his opponent in the ride. I've seen it time and time again. Probably should be stalling on top man more often when he refuses to go to a new move, but I think stalemate is usually a fair call.

[aacoach117]

In the scenario you laid out, Wrestler A should be warned for stalling. From what I have seen, if Wrestler A stays on the hips long enough in that position he usually draws the stall warning. If he puts boots in and rolls the wrists and stays on the hips then it is a clear stalling attempt and should be called.

By the same measure, I am seeing a lot of situations where Wrestler B "turtles up" on the bottom with his elbows in tight and is making zero effort to escape or get a reversal. He is content to just lay on his stomach and defend the turn. These guys are RARELY warned for stalling unless they have laid there the entire period and then they may get a warning with 10 or 15 seconds left.

[Studcradle]

There's a few things to look at here, I will give the top man some time to execute whatever move he is working for, but he has to show me he's advancing towards something. Now if both legs and or feet\knees of the bottom man are elevated due to the double legs , I peronally will call stalemate , it'd very hard for the bottom man to advance up when your legs are up of the mat in that scenario. In 2 rules clinics I went to , we went over this a good bit, and it's to give the stalemate and then if it proceeds again , then it's the referees judgement on stalling , every scenario is diffrent , personally I would warn both wrestlers after the stalemate to work out and through that position, but in the scenario Bearhugger gave i think I would be looking at a stall call very seriously the second go round .
Now for the comment about the potentially dangerous, and he will go, it is a pd situation. If the top wrestler is providing pressure down on a hip/leg on the same side he is turning only half of the bottom man can turn , and I've had it done to me and I can assure you it hurt like hell. But there is way to much pressure on the back in that case, I'm always watching to see if they release the leg wich they genrally do

Is your decision on whether to make the call influenced by:
1. Previous activity or inactivity or the wrestlers in the top bottom position? If the wrestlers were moving slow in top bottom the previous period and you called a stall will you call it faster this period? If you didn’t call the stall last period are you slower on the stall call this period?
2. You knowing the wrestler? I don’t mean this in a way to question your honesty. We have a referee shortage problem in WV. Most of the referees have relationships with coaches and even some wrestlers. If you know that a particular wrestler does something that many of your colleagues would consider stalling but you also know it’s part of his strategy are you inclined to call the stall slower than when officiating a wrestler you don’t know?
3.The coaches and crowd? Does the fist in the air and grumbling cause you to look at it closer?
4. The score? Score shouldn’t matter in determining who is stalling but it sure seems like the stall gets called against the guy in the lead unless they are close to a bonus and the losing guy is clearly trying to keep the loss at 7 points or 14 points.
5. Time remaining? Sure seems like passivity is ok in the first 20 seconds but the identical passivity will get a fist in the air in the final 20 seconds.

[Mark.nazelrodt]

Implement riding time like in college. Man on bottom won't stop trying.

[forthekids]

I will only say this...

STALLING is a judgment call! The key in my opinion is the official consistent in his calls. That is all you can asked for. Both coaches and wrestlers know what officials call stalling more aggressive then others. As long as official is consistent in them, then you know what you are getting. What is stalling to one official is being overpowered by another. Reminds me of snowflakes no two are alike, but again consistency is the key.

I also feel if you apply the definition of Stalling by rule book not many matches would make it into third period. NO ONE WANTS that and common sense prevails.

You are correct in shortage of officials and it is going to hit a crucial mass in a couple of years. I see a lot of young talented ones out there. In my opinion it is up to everybody in wrestling community to encourage them and keep them going. It takes a while to get thick skinned on all the criticism and all the other things that go with it.

As the legendary GK would say, call the stall, call the fall, call it all! OR as the Wiseone told me, It is what it is and 50% are happy and 50% not so much.

Chris Diserio
CW0441

[wiseone]

This is a good sensible discussion. Several accurate comments and opinions. Stalling is the most difficult call in wrestling to make. Think of it in this way. You are watching a basketball game. Any level except professional. Player runs into the defender or the defender blocks his progress. What is the call? Blocking or charge? Call it a block and one coach and many fans lose their mind. Call it a charge and the other coach and the rest of the fans lose their mind. Just a point of comparison.


Are their guidelines for calling stalling? Yep. Situation after situation and interpretation after interpretation. I attended many clinics over the years in Ohio (where I was registered) about rule interpretations. Ohio is considered by some to be one of the best states for officiating in wrestling. I didn't say it IS the best as I have my own opinions. I have been to the Ohio State tournament many times and have seen atrocious stalling calls made. I have been to the Pennsylvania State tournament many times and the same holds true. I have also seen some outstanding calls (my opinion again) made in both tournaments. I have disagreed strongly with interpretations given by Ohio Clinicians over the years because to me they just weren't fair. To either wrestler. I have however called it the way my Ohio Clinician has given the interpretation and been booed loudly and strongly by the fans and coaches. So what do you do? I have called it the way Dr. Welker interpreted it and his way was a very conservative interpretation as opposed to Ohio's harsh interpretation. And yes booed again. Loudly!


Is the official always right in his call for stalling? Probably not 100%. But as Chris has said above and Dr.Welker consistency is the key. If you call it the absolute same way each time, which is hard because situations are not black and white by the rule book. They should be but they.....are....not. Fact of life. But in attempting to call it consistently at least the coach has an idea of how to coach his wrestler to the situation. Now should the coach have to coach his kid to the officials ability? Not really. Another fact of life.


In an attempt to not make this rambling I sort of have which may go to show you the various angles of the stall call. For example the most misunderstood stall call is when the bottom wrestler stands and is trying to escape or reverse his opponent. It is the top man's responsibility to "try/attempt" to return him to the mat. Most coaches will start a loud and obnoxious 5 second count. They are wrong. It may look ugly and it usually is but if that top man is really trying to return him to the mat there is action. Both kids are wrestling. They may not be as efficient as they need to be to score or better their position. That is not the officials problem. Yet we/they are required to do something to expediate the speed and flow of the action so a stall call is imminent. Usually shuts up one coach and pisses off the other. Consistency right?


So some time ago I was watching an officials clinic and probably the best comment on stalling I ever heard was this. It is stalling when one wrestler is gaining or has gained an "unfair advantage" over the other wrestler. So in my enforcement of the stall call I tried to use that as my rule of thumb. Not always right but as consistent as possible.


And in closing no matter how many opinions and interpretations and situations real and hypothetical there will ALWAYS be controversy over a stall call.


Just my opinion but I could be wrong.


Ray Marling
OVAC/State Official: RET.

[forthekids]

This is a good sensible discussion. Several accurate comments and opinions. Stalling is the most difficult call in wrestling to make. Think of it in this way. You are watching a basketball game. Any level except professional. Player runs into the defender or the defender blocks his progress. What is the call? Blocking or charge? Call it a block and one coach and many fans lose their mind. Call it a charge and the other coach and the rest of the fans lose their mind. Just a point of comparison.


Are their guidelines for calling stalling? Yep. Situation after situation and interpretation after interpretation. I attended many clinics over the years in Ohio (where I was registered) about rule interpretations. Ohio is considered by some to be one of the best states for officiating in wrestling. I didn't say it IS the best as I have my own opinions. I have been to the Ohio State tournament many times and have seen atrocious stalling calls made. I have been to the Pennsylvania State tournament many times and the same holds true. I have also seen some outstanding calls (my opinion again) made in both tournaments. I have disagreed strongly with interpretations given by Ohio Clinicians over the years because to me they just weren't fair. To either wrestler. I have however called it the way my Ohio Clinician has given the interpretation and been booed loudly and strongly by the fans and coaches. So what do you do? I have called it the way Dr. Welker interpreted it and his way was a very conservative interpretation as opposed to Ohio's harsh interpretation. And yes booed again. Loudly!


Is the official always right in his call for stalling? Probably not 100%. But as Chris has said above and Dr.Welker consistency is the key. If you call it the absolute same way each time, which is hard because situations are not black and white by the rule book. They should be but they.....are....not. Fact of life. But in attempting to call it consistently at least the coach has an idea of how to coach his wrestler to the situation. Now should the coach have to coach his kid to the officials ability? Not really. Another fact of life.


In an attempt to not make this rambling I sort of have which may go to show you the various angles of the stall call. For example the most misunderstood stall call is when the bottom wrestler stands and is trying to escape or reverse his opponent. It is the top man's responsibility to "try/attempt" to return him to the mat. Most coaches will start a loud and obnoxious 5 second count. They are wrong. It may look ugly and it usually is but if that top man is really trying to return him to the mat there is action. Both kids are wrestling. They may not be as efficient as they need to be to score or better their position. That is not the officials problem. Yet we/they are required to do something to expediate the speed and flow of the action so a stall call is imminent. Usually shuts up one coach and pisses off the other. Consistency right?


So some time ago I was watching an officials clinic and probably the best comment on stalling I ever heard was this. It is stalling when one wrestler is gaining or has gained an "unfair advantage" over the other wrestler. So in my enforcement of the stall call I tried to use that as my rule of thumb. Not always right but as consistent as possible.


And in closing no matter how many opinions and interpretations and situations real and hypothetical there will ALWAYS be controversy over a stall call.


Just my opinion but I could be wrong.


Ray Marling
OVAC/State Official: RET.

Is this the written version of a Mc...….. story NOW THAT IS FUNNY, DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE.

[Gator]

This is a good sensible discussion. Several accurate comments and opinions. Stalling is the most difficult call in wrestling to make. Think of it in this way. You are watching a basketball game. Any level except professional. Player runs into the defender or the defender blocks his progress. What is the call? Blocking or charge? Call it a block and one coach and many fans lose their mind. Call it a charge and the other coach and the rest of the fans lose their mind. Just a point of comparison.


Are their guidelines for calling stalling? Yep. Situation after situation and interpretation after interpretation. I attended many clinics over the years in Ohio (where I was registered) about rule interpretations. Ohio is considered by some to be one of the best states for officiating in wrestling. I didn't say it IS the best as I have my own opinions. I have been to the Ohio State tournament many times and have seen atrocious stalling calls made. I have been to the Pennsylvania State tournament many times and the same holds true. I have also seen some outstanding calls (my opinion again) made in both tournaments. I have disagreed strongly with interpretations given by Ohio Clinicians over the years because to me they just weren't fair. To either wrestler. I have however called it the way my Ohio Clinician has given the interpretation and been booed loudly and strongly by the fans and coaches. So what do you do? I have called it the way Dr. Welker interpreted it and his way was a very conservative interpretation as opposed to Ohio's harsh interpretation. And yes booed again. Loudly!


Is the official always right in his call for stalling? Probably not 100%. But as Chris has said above and Dr.Welker consistency is the key. If you call it the absolute same way each time, which is hard because situations are not black and white by the rule book. They should be but they.....are....not. Fact of life. But in attempting to call it consistently at least the coach has an idea of how to coach his wrestler to the situation. Now should the coach have to coach his kid to the officials ability? Not really. Another fact of life.


In an attempt to not make this rambling I sort of have which may go to show you the various angles of the stall call. For example the most misunderstood stall call is when the bottom wrestler stands and is trying to escape or reverse his opponent. It is the top man's responsibility to "try/attempt" to return him to the mat. Most coaches will start a loud and obnoxious 5 second count. They are wrong. It may look ugly and it usually is but if that top man is really trying to return him to the mat there is action. Both kids are wrestling. They may not be as efficient as they need to be to score or better their position. That is not the officials problem. Yet we/they are required to do something to expediate the speed and flow of the action so a stall call is imminent. Usually shuts up one coach and pisses off the other. Consistency right?


So some time ago I was watching an officials clinic and probably the best comment on stalling I ever heard was this. It is stalling when one wrestler is gaining or has gained an "unfair advantage" over the other wrestler. So in my enforcement of the stall call I tried to use that as my rule of thumb. Not always right but as consistent as possible.


And in closing no matter how many opinions and interpretations and situations real and hypothetical there will ALWAYS be controversy over a stall call.


Just my opinion but I could be wrong.


Ray Marling
OVAC/State Official: RET.

Is this the written version of a Mc...….. story NOW THAT IS FUNNY, DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE.

Dang, both you guys know, if my fist is in the air...it’s stallin’!

[KDunbar]

Question for Mr. Marling. I don't disagree with you, but could you please expand on the term/thought of "unfair advantage ".

[technical violation]

There's a few things to look at here, I will give the top man some time to execute whatever move he is working for, but he has to show me he's advancing towards something. Now if both legs and or feet\knees of the bottom man are elevated due to the double legs , I peronally will call stalemate , it'd very hard for the bottom man to advance up when your legs are up of the mat in that scenario. In 2 rules clinics I went to , we went over this a good bit, and it's to give the stalemate and then if it proceeds again , then it's the referees judgement on stalling , every scenario is diffrent , personally I would warn both wrestlers after the stalemate to work out and through that position, but in the scenario Bearhugger gave i think I would be looking at a stall call very seriously the second go round .
Now for the comment about the potentially dangerous, and he will go, it is a pd situation. If the top wrestler is providing pressure down on a hip/leg on the same side he is turning only half of the bottom man can turn , and I've had it done to me and I can assure you it hurt like hell. But there is way to much pressure on the back in that case, I'm always watching to see if they release the leg wich they genrally do

Is your decision on whether to make the call influenced by:
1. Previous activity or inactivity or the wrestlers in the top bottom position? If the wrestlers were moving slow in top bottom the previous period and you called a stall will you call it faster this period? If you didn’t call the stall last period are you slower on the stall call this period?
2. You knowing the wrestler? I don’t mean this in a way to question your honesty. We have a referee shortage problem in WV. Most of the referees have relationships with coaches and even some wrestlers. If you know that a particular wrestler does something that many of your colleagues would consider stalling but you also know it’s part of his strategy are you inclined to call the stall slower than when officiating a wrestler you don’t know?
3.The coaches and crowd? Does the fist in the air and grumbling cause you to look at it closer?
4. The score? Score shouldn’t matter in determining who is stalling but it sure seems like the stall gets called against the guy in the lead unless they are close to a bonus and the losing guy is clearly trying to keep the loss at 7 points or 14 points.
5. Time remaining? Sure seems like passivity is ok in the first 20 seconds but the identical passivity will get a fist in the air in the final 20 seconds.

Studcradle Heres my thoughts and opinions
#1. I dont feel that i would call it faster or slower in either circumstance. If i have warned a wrestler for stalling, i feel i would be more apt to watch him more intentley for stalling. Im looking for certain criteria to be met for stalling. Now to elaborate more deeply. If i warned the top man in the second period for inactivity say after 1:20, i would still hit him for stalling for backing out in the first :15 seconds in the 3rd period. Now if he has been warned for stalling to top i will inform him that we need to work to score, and if the scenario plays out the same on a restart, then we are going to have another stall call. But no i dont feel it would be any slower or faster, once a wrestler has established and met criteria, and shows no signs of altering his action , he is going to be warned, regardless of wich period, or time. But im also looking for patterns, if the top wrestler shows some stalling tactics in the late 2nd period, and the period ends, and we have the same action in the 3rd im warning the top man. As i said im looking for habitual actions and criteria to present themselves.
#2. This is a very good question, and no i dont feel that your in any way questioning my honesty. This is a for lack of a better term double edged sword. This can have advantages and disadvantages. Ex. if ive seen a wreslter 12 times in a year and i know he takes a 3 or 4 step drop to set up a shot, it can help officiating that wrestler knowing this. Or if a wrestler like to develop certain moves on top that take time to develop, i may be apt to let him develop it a bit longer than normal. On a wrestler i dont know i wouldnt say that it would come slower, but as i said before i will let a wrestler work for something, but im looking for patterns to develop, but when you dont know a wrestler you not as edjucated as to how he wrestles, so they may be warned quicker than the ones i know, but as i said im looking for habit and criteria. But ive also had wreslters that ive officated many times that ive never hit for stalling that for whatever reason they may start backing out suddenly in wich they will be warned.
Alot of wrestlers and team have certain tendencies with certain moves and tatics. And you do learn those habits, which can aid in officiating, by positioning, letting them wrestle through situations etc.
#3. Ive gotten to a point in may carrer that the crowd and the coaches have no effect on how i call stalling. As i said im looking for certain things to be met, just becasue a coach or a parent in the stands feels its stalling it may not have in any way met any criteria for stalling, thats their opinions and stalling is a judgement call, and its my judgement , and im not going to call or not call something becasue a coach is simply wanting a call. Good example of this lets say 3rd period wrestler A takes 2 or 3 rapid shots in sucession, while wreslter B defends. The coach from A may say hes taken 3 shots , whats wrestler b doing, but then again in my judgement wrestler B has a legitimate right to defend against the shot and recover. And you hear alot of "whats the top man doing?" But im usally thinking in my mind, what the bottom man doing cause he is just laying there, i need to see more out of the bottom man to warrant that call.
#4. Score doesnt matter to me in awarding stalling calls. Now many times yes a loosing wrestler in a dual is trying not to give up those bonus points, Alot of times the guy in the lead will get hit cause hes trying to jsut hold on to a bonus situation instead of trying to score. But ever scenario is diffrent.
#5. On time, it doesnt matter to me what the time is. I will warn a wrestler in the first 30 seconds for backing out , jsut as fast as i will in the last 20 seconds. Now in many situations not all but many, in the 2nd/3rd period wrestlers become gassed and or are trying to hold a lead, and meet criteria for stalling due to this. I think this why fans tend to see so much stalling calls later in a match, also they tend to get into certain situations they typically dont in the 1st period.

In closing For the kids and Wise one are spot on in their comments, Chris is right coaches and wrestlers hope that at least the particular official will be consistent with their stalling calls, and we do our best to be consistent, And he is also right in that if we went by the book not many matches would make the 3rd period. As ray said many state organizations and coaches want stalling called a certain way, and many dont like it or perhaps they love it that way, personally i think it should be by the book with some common sense but thats just my 2 cents. Ray is also right on the 5 second rule, i hear coaches yelling it in all types of positions. The only place in the book where is says anything about 5 seconds is "If the top man holds the heel to the buttocks for more than 5 seconds, it is considered stalling" thats the only mention of 5 seconds in the book.
Stalling is a tough and judgemental call. Most often if u asked a 1000 ofiicals about a call you may get 789 diffrent answers. But i have learned alot from Chris and Ray, sometimes by taking polite criticism, sometimes by ears open and mouth shut, and sometimes by asking questions on scenarios. I have been blessed to have learned from both of these guys and am still learning from both of them, and feel blessed to be able to gain there knowledge and pick their brains from time to time, the state of wv has been very lucky to have both of them.

[wiseone]

To me it is an unfair advantage when a wrestler is permitted to take advantage of a situation where he is not trying to pin, reverse, or escape from his opponent. By that, the official does not recognize that such a situation Is happening or chooses to ignore for many of the reasons mentioned by the various contributors to the comments on this thread.

I hope that is satisfactory KDunbar.

There you go Chris. Is that short enough for you?