Region IV ranked wrestlers

[mscoach22]

Ok I know this post isn't going to change anything but it has been weighing on me for a while and I know it has been discussed already but the number continues to grow. The newest individual rankings list (when released) will have region IV with 11 top ten ranked wrestlers staying home from states this year. I may be wrong but that number appears to be higher than it has ever been for any previous region. Don't get me wrong, I know that region I has had to suffer through extremely tough regionals in the past but this is ridiculous! There are 3 weight classes with 6 region IV ranked kids and 5 with 5 ranked kids. I know, I know the cream will rise to the top but how do you do that when so much of the "cream" is in the same region?? I guess I just feel for the kids who will be staying home, knowing they have beaten kids from other regions who will be there or worse on the podium in their place, smh... Well rant over and good luck to everyone the rest of the season!

[vortexfan]

Ok I know this post isn't going to change anything but it has been weighing on me for a while and I know it has been discussed already but the number continues to grow. The newest individual rankings list (when released) will have region IV with 11 top ten ranked wrestlers staying home from states this year. I may be wrong but that number appears to be higher than it has ever been for any previous region. Don't get me wrong, I know that region I has had to suffer through extremely tough regionals in the past but this is ridiculous! There are 3 weight classes with 6 region IV ranked kids and 5 with 5 ranked kids. I know, I know the cream will rise to the top but how do you do that when so much of the "cream" is in the same region?? I guess I just feel for the kids who will be staying home, knowing they have beaten kids from other regions who will be there or worse on the podium in their place, smh... Well rant over and good luck to everyone the rest of the season!

Very good points; It is not going to change this year but for the future of this sport it needs to be looked at, with Student Athlete as priority number one!

[coach_williams]

Being ranked does not automatically mean you should go to states. I will name no names, but at one point this season there was a wrestler with less than 10 wins ranked in the top 5 while others with 30+ wins were ranked below him. Rankings means jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states.

[TrueSouthFanInTampa]

Being ranked does not automatically mean you should go to states. I will name no names, but at one point this season there was a wrestler with less than 10 wins ranked in the top 5 while others with 30+ wins were ranked below him. Rankings means jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states.

The level of competition matters too. I have seen tons of guys show up at States with huge win totals go down early

[Frylock]

I agree that the rankings are interesting for discussion and not Gospel revelation. However, I find it funny how certain people make such a big deal about ranked wrestlers who won't make it to States because the Regions are so bad and misaligned. It's unfair that JV wrestlers don't get ranked. That one region had more ranked teams or wrestlers than another region. And the list goes on, but how do you really know how things will play out until the State tournament is over? I know, like everything is obvious...like Seattle should have run the ball in the SuperBowl...

[guard0544]

Being ranked does not automatically mean you should go to states. I will name no names, but at one point this season there was a wrestler with less than 10 wins ranked in the top 5 while others with 30+ wins were ranked below him. Rankings means jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states.

The "Rankings mean jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states" crowd misses the point, perhaps willfully. Certainly a ranking is not going to get you a spot in the state tournament. However, at this point in the season the rankings are typically extremely accurate at predicting state qualifiers in each region. They are based on a full season of head to head matches and common opponent wins and losses. It is certainly valid for someone to raise concerns about the number of ranked wrestlers in one region. To attempt to brush off and dismiss their concerns with "rankings mean nothing" is simply being disingenuous and placing ones head in the sand.

[coach_williams]

Being ranked does not automatically mean you should go to states. I will name no names, but at one point this season there was a wrestler with less than 10 wins ranked in the top 5 while others with 30+ wins were ranked below him. Rankings means jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states.

The "Rankings mean jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states" crowd misses the point, perhaps willfully. Certainly a ranking is not going to get you a spot in the state tournament. However, at this point in the season the rankings are typically extremely accurate at predicting state qualifiers in each region. They are based on a full season of head to head matches and common opponent wins and losses. It is certainly valid for someone to raise concerns about the number of ranked wrestlers in one region. To attempt to brush off and dismiss their concerns with "rankings mean nothing" is simply being disingenuous and placing ones head in the sand.

I am not brushing anything off. The OP clearly thinks that it is a travesty that a ranked wrestler won't make states. Being ranked does not guarantee going to states and a ranked wrestler not making states is not, by itself, proof of a problem.

The OP pointed out that 11 ranked wrestlers won't make it. There are 140 ranked wrestlers. Thus, 7.8% will miss states. I am not going to go looking around state by state, but I bet that there is a comparable percentage of ranked wrestlers in other states that fail to reach the state championship as well. It is not that big of a deal.

[guard0544]

Being ranked does not automatically mean you should go to states. I will name no names, but at one point this season there was a wrestler with less than 10 wins ranked in the top 5 while others with 30+ wins were ranked below him. Rankings means jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states.

The "Rankings mean jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states" crowd misses the point, perhaps willfully. Certainly a ranking is not going to get you a spot in the state tournament. However, at this point in the season the rankings are typically extremely accurate at predicting state qualifiers in each region. They are based on a full season of head to head matches and common opponent wins and losses. It is certainly valid for someone to raise concerns about the number of ranked wrestlers in one region. To attempt to brush off and dismiss their concerns with "rankings mean nothing" is simply being disingenuous and placing ones head in the sand.

I am not brushing anything off. The OP clearly thinks that it is a travesty that a ranked wrestler won't make states. Being ranked does not guarantee going to states and a ranked wrestler not making states is not, by itself, proof of a problem.

The OP pointed out that 11 ranked wrestlers won't make it. There are 140 ranked wrestlers. Thus, 7.8% will miss states. I am not going to go looking around state by state, but I bet that there is a comparable percentage of ranked wrestlers in other states that fail to reach the state championship as well. It is not that big of a deal.

The OP isnt concerned if a ranked wrestler doesnt make it to the state tournament. The OP is only concerned with the number who wont make it simply due to there being 5-6 ranked kids in their weight class. That is the situation for 8 weight classes in Region VI (totaling 11 ranked wrestlers missing states)

You mention 11 (7.8%) not being very many. However, you fail to account for all 11 of those wrestlers being from Region IV teams. The real numbers to examine would be there are 63 ranked Region IV wrestlers, of which 11 (17.5%) will not make the state tournament. Once you begin getting close to 20% of the ranked wrestlers in a region not being able to get to the state tournament, it is fair for some to critcize how stacked that region is.

[vortexfan]

Sad for the better ranked wrestlers who get left out States to other wrestlers they may have defeated, possibly numerous times.
Can't believe people post life isn't fair or that's happened for years, why not propose a solution after those remarks.
Wouldn't you want to see it improve for the future generations of HS wrestling?

[KDunbar]

The "Rankings mean jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states" crowd misses the point, perhaps willfully. Certainly a ranking is not going to get you a spot in the state tournament. However, at this point in the season the rankings are typically extremely accurate at predicting state qualifiers in each region. They are based on a full season of head to head matches and common opponent wins and losses. It is certainly valid for someone to raise concerns about the number of ranked wrestlers in one region. To attempt to brush off and dismiss their concerns with "rankings mean nothing" is simply being disingenuous and placing ones head in the sand.

I am not brushing anything off. The OP clearly thinks that it is a travesty that a ranked wrestler won't make states. Being ranked does not guarantee going to states and a ranked wrestler not making states is not, by itself, proof of a problem.

The OP pointed out that 11 ranked wrestlers won't make it. There are 140 ranked wrestlers. Thus, 7.8% will miss states. I am not going to go looking around state by state, but I bet that there is a comparable percentage of ranked wrestlers in other states that fail to reach the state championship as well. It is not that big of a deal.

The OP isnt concerned if a ranked wrestler doesnt make it to the state tournament. The OP is only concerned with the number who wont make it simply due to there being 5-6 ranked kids in their weight class. That is the situation for 8 weight classes in Region VI (totaling 11 ranked wrestlers missing states)

You mention 11 (7.8%) not being very many. However, you fail to account for all 11 of those wrestlers being from Region IV teams. The real numbers to examine would be there are 63 ranked Region IV wrestlers, of which 11 (17.5%) will not make the state tournament. Once you begin getting close to 20% of the ranked wrestlers in a region not being able to get to the state tournament, it is fair for some to critcize how stacked that region is.

This last comment in the post highlighted above and their argument for there being a reason for concern, regarding the disparity in strength of wrestling in the various regions, I think explains it all.

The cream will rise to the top argument is only valid for who finishes in first pace in a weight class in that given tournament. It is ignorant to think you can make that statement apply to any of the places below first. Unless the 2nd place finisher gets to wrestle the 3rd place finisher, there is no accuracy or difference as to who really is 2nd place or whether chance determined this. With that being said, I mean no disrespect to the previous Brooke coach referred to in another post who used that phrase. However, what I agree with that he is purported to have said is something to the effect that "life isn't fair" and if anything teaches us that, it is wrestling.

Regarding the meaning of rankings, to say that they don't mean anything is also ignorant. No, they should not be used to determine the outcome of a match. However, they are based on wrestling matches and I for one think that they warrant some merit. After all, the kid did actually wrestle several matches to determine where he is placed. If you've ever wrestled then you would certainly know there is some meaning to that. Let's attempt to give the kids some credit for their work. I'm sure they at least are intelligent enough to know the meaning of the rankings. To randomly pick one particular example where the rankings seemed to be inaccurate is ludicrous and means absolutely nothing as to the overall respect the kids should get for achieving that recognition. I'm sure that this complete dismissal of rankings comes from those that don't think they were "fair" to someone they know. I think we've already heard it said that wrestling teaches us just that, life isn't always fair. That also teaches us we are not allowed to dismiss reality when it hurts our feelings.

Now, back to reality. We all know there is some meaning to rankings and time has shown us that they warrant some consideration. Otherwise coaches would not do the very fun task of seeding a tournament. After all, the cream (the single best wrestler in each weight class) will rise to the top. However, if you've wrestled you would know that having to defeat the 2nd best, 3rd best, and the 4th best wrestler just to reach the finals over a two day tournament would be significantly more difficult than if the brackets were somewhat "equal" and all your matches leading up to the finals were not all 15 second pins. And since, as we know, life and wrestling isn't always fair, "cowboys" do happen in the finals (just ask Independence and East Fairmont).

Finally, the point being made is that of the 140 ranked wrestlers, only 35 would be in each region if things were "equal". Having 63 in a single region equates to having 80% more than would be expected. So for what it is worth (which unless statistically confirmed doesn't necessarily mean anything) we've gone from considering the meaning of 7%, to considering the meaning of 17%, and now we're up to 80%. I think even the most ardent Trump supporter would have to agree that 80% would be a little concerning. I know that the regions were realigned based on current enrollment and geographic location for all sports, not just wrestling. However, one would think some consideration would at least be given to changing something from "unfair" to "stupid". This doesn't really adversely affect my favorite team much. However, it does affect many individual wrestlers, particularly the 80% stuck because of this change or decision.

Oh, by the way. This is only my opinion. Everyone is free to make their own decisions (unless you are currently at Berkley).

[RWWS]

How about this we have the coaches only rank 8 kids and they can only have 2 kids ranked per weight class per region and then that way the ranked wrestlers should make it to the state tournament.

[vortexfan]

How about fixing the problem to get the best wrestlers at the states year in and year out?

This state is not the size of Texas and Ohio; two regions!

[Panther_coach]

I take an opposite view ... Let everyone wrestle at State. If we can do the WSAZ Invitational with way more than twice as many wrestlers (counting middle school as well) in two days with 64 man brackets and even pigtails off of those) then ... Surely we could do the state in three days. Just do away with regionals entirely or even better use regionals to determine seed positions. Those not placing at regionals get thrown in the computer draw. You could do a follow the leader bracket too which would solve the problem of regional inequalities in strength. Single elimination in pigtails, 64 and 32 the double from there on out. Everyone gets to come ( yes Bearhugger, even JV's) - more tickets, concessions, hotel rooms, etc. are sold ... WVSSAC makes more money. Everyone is happy. On 12 mats like we do the WSAZ, this could be quite feasible over a three day period. I am sure this is too simple a solution so it will never be adopted but I think it could work.

[KDunbar]

How about this we have the coaches only rank 8 kids and they can only have 2 kids ranked per weight class per region and then that way the ranked wrestlers should make it to the state tournament.

I'm not really responding to the above inane comment, but why don't we stop beating around the bush and just be honest about things without actually being mean to any one or particular identified wrestlers. When it comes to the state tournament it would be nice and more interesting to actually have wrestlers vying for a spot on the podium who actually have some wrestling skills. We are already light years behind states like Ohio and Pennsylvania where just making it to the state tournament is a commendable accomplishment in wrestling. It would be (and is) a little bit embarrassing to have those wrestlers from those states actually see just who makes the state tournament in WV. Sure it's nice for the kid from wherever to be able to say that they qualified. However, it's much worse for the kid who has become better by working hard to be left out so somebody else can have warm fuzzies. If it actually was a challenge for them to make it to the state tournament, they might actually work harder and thus their teams would get better rather than continuing to live in a fantasy world.

Now if you want to create an artificial appearance of the parity in the state being equal we should go back to having only one classification and eight regions with only the winner advancing to the state. Since for the most part only the "good wrestlers " would make it, team strength and depth would be eliminated and we wouldn't be left shaking our heads about who we see in the state tournament.

Now that I think about, I'm actually in favor of the sarcastic suggestion made above. It would actually improve the quality of wrestling one has to experience at the state tournament and the cream (meaning the single best wrestler per weight class) would still be the state champ. But I suggest we do go back to eight regions but allow the coaches to only pick the top wrestler from each, thus decreasing the chances of the less deserving wrestlers from being there to diminish the prestige of the event.

Actually life, like wrestling, is a real son of a "gun" and take it from me, it tends to only kick you harder when you're already down.

Maybe Panther_coach above has the nicest solution and my mean hearted attitude would be a thing of the past.

[RWWS]

The post was meant to look stupid.

[vortexfan]

Good post by panther coach and KDunbar; I like panther coach post due to the future of the sport, I have no problem with that State format. I think it would be a. If draw of fans and in turn generate revenue. No one system is going to be perfect.
I do however think KDunbar has something if the participation was what it used to be.
I hear many classes are not filled nor competing in some regions that is why I would like to see the two regional format.
I like these ideas getting talked about I hope something can get done to improve this sport, presently the system could be a lot better with parity and the better wrestlers making it to the states, I know this will be a factor this year for Region 4 in AAA and Region 1 in A/AA

[Bearhugger]

Being ranked does not automatically mean you should go to states. I will name no names, but at one point this season there was a wrestler with less than 10 wins ranked in the top 5 while others with 30+ wins were ranked below him. Rankings means jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states.

The "Rankings mean jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states" crowd misses the point, perhaps willfully. Certainly a ranking is not going to get you a spot in the state tournament. However, at this point in the season the rankings are typically extremely accurate at predicting state qualifiers in each region. They are based on a full season of head to head matches and common opponent wins and losses. It is certainly valid for someone to raise concerns about the number of ranked wrestlers in one region. To attempt to brush off and dismiss their concerns with "rankings mean nothing" is simply being disingenuous and placing ones head in the sand.

I am not brushing anything off. The OP clearly thinks that it is a travesty that a ranked wrestler won't make states. Being ranked does not guarantee going to states and a ranked wrestler not making states is not, by itself, proof of a problem.

The OP pointed out that 11 ranked wrestlers won't make it. There are 140 ranked wrestlers. Thus, 7.8% will miss states. I am not going to go looking around state by state, but I bet that there is a comparable percentage of ranked wrestlers in other states that fail to reach the state championship as well. It is not that big of a deal.

AA/A region 2 is lacking in ranked wrestlers. I see your point.

[Bearhugger]

I take an opposite view ... Let everyone wrestle at State. If we can do the WSAZ Invitational with way more than twice as many wrestlers (counting middle school as well) in two days with 64 man brackets and even pigtails off of those) then ... Surely we could do the state in three days. Just do away with regionals entirely or even better use regionals to determine seed positions. Those not placing at regionals get thrown in the computer draw. You could do a follow the leader bracket too which would solve the problem of regional inequalities in strength. Single elimination in pigtails, 64 and 32 the double from there on out. Everyone gets to come ( yes Bearhugger, even JV's) - more tickets, concessions, hotel rooms, etc. are sold ... WVSSAC makes more money. Everyone is happy. On 12 mats like we do the WSAZ, this could be quite feasible over a three day period. I am sure this is too simple a solution so it will never be adopted but I think it could work.

Of course it could work. I don't like the single elimination in pigtails aspect, but it would be one heck of an event.

[Bearhugger]

When the smoke clears February 27th, we can see what regions had the most champions and the most place winners.

We can see all of the UNranked wrestlers (rankings mean nothing) that qualified and didn't win, place or win a match. We can see this by region also.

[Panther_coach]

But single elimination with follow the leader at least partially solves that. If the guy who beats you wins you are still in, if he loses you are out. So if you get an unlucky computer draw against a monster and he wins his next match you get another match. We did this at WSAZ for a number of years.

[mscoach22]

let the OP make one more comment... The "cream" as it is being referred to now as just the best in each weight class breaks down something like this:
Region 4- 10 number ones!
Region 3- 2
Region 2- 1
Region 1- 1

based on recent rankings and I may have missed one or more but that's pretty close, and that's a lot of the "cream" in one region!! As stated earlier we will see on the 27th after the dust settles and I'll be anxious to see just how many of the region 4 kids occupy the podium spots...
As always good luck to all!

P.S. Panther Coach that sounds like a great idea, regionals for seeds and throw em all in there!! It'll never happen but would be one heck of a state tourney!

[P.H.D.]

let the OP make one more comment... The "cream" as it is being referred to now as just the best in each weight class breaks down something like this:
Region 4- 10 number ones!
Region 3- 2
Region 2- 1
Region 1- 1

based on recent rankings and I may have missed one or more but that's pretty close, and that's a lot of the "cream" in one region!! As stated earlier we will see on the 27th after the dust settles and I'll be anxious to see just how many of the region 4 kids occupy the podium spots...
As always good luck to all!

P.S. Panther Coach that sounds like a great idea, regionals for seeds and throw em all in there!! It'll never happen but would be one heck of a state tourney!

One Region? Hell, 6 are on one team...

[RWWS]

So if the regional realignment didn't happen there would be 9 number 1 ranked wrestlers in Region 1.

[Bearhugger]

So if the regional realignment didn't happen there would be 9 number 1 ranked wrestlers in Region 1.

There is a new region 1 now and it is in AA/A.

[RWWS]

What are you talking about?

[P.H.D.]

What are you talking about?

What's this AA crap? We were talking AAA. How dare you Bearhugger???!!!lol

[Gator]

Since it's region 4, are we allowed (or is it aloud) to talk about South?

[vortexfan]

Please look at the results this year in States after it is over with and if you think a change in realignment or different type of regions; or qualifications for states is needed, please let the power to be's know this. We owe it to the future of this sport and next generations of wrestlers. Contact your AD, coaches, committee and SSAC.

I think the better wrestlers will not be participating due to this regional realignment.

Nothing will change if we as wrestling enthusiasts do not do anything about it.

[RWWS]

Again this has been going on for years and no one made this much of a deal about it.

[sfc1]

Being ranked does not automatically mean you should go to states. I will name no names, but at one point this season there was a wrestler with less than 10 wins ranked in the top 5 while others with 30+ wins were ranked below him. Rankings means jackdiddly when it comes to regionals and states.

The young man you speak of is a two time state qualifier and he has some big wins the last three years. The week he went to # 5 he soundly beat that previous weeks # 4 ranked wrestler. Since then he has some bad losses but earned what he had that week. Since then he dropped out but did just beat a ranked 170 pounder who just moved down. Doc does a good job at the rankings and doesn't just randomly throw kids in there.